[FINNDIAN]

Oh Yes, I remember that thread now..
And you did a very nice job, regarding destroying that engine..

----------------------------------------------------------------

Regarding your camshaft question. .
Yes, that can be done.

However, accurately calculating that with a roots blower, which is very sensitive to heat, versus the 'average density ratio' seen at the output of the intercooler, could be a difficult task.

Also, generally speaking; all of the OEM Camshafts, are meant
to 'retain cylinder pressure', so as to maximize torque.

They are not meant to provide for 'Peak HP', nor is the
too small of a TB these engines are equipped with.

How about you simply reduce your pulley ratio a bit, or use an octane booster. . . .

---------------------------------------------------------

-roots blowers are highly inefficient-
And these 'Stock Roots Blowers' don't like filling the cylinders,
much more than 100% fill, and they then generate much heat.

This then causes the density to go down, and the
quality of the fuel then becomes an issue.

---------------------------------------------------------

A 1900 CC Roots Blower, is equal to 116 CID.
Your running a pulley ratio of 3.62.

If we multiply those together, then the 'Equivalent CID' would be
the product of the two, and amounts to (116 * 3.62)= 420 CID.

Also, at ~6200 rpm, your blower is also spinning ~22,440 rpm.

And if we divide 420 by 376, we get a volume ratio of ~1.11.
You might desire to reduce that down, just a bit..

Good Luck!

thanks for that insight.
I had considered changing the ratio a bit or possibly adding meth injection to provide some additional
safety.

 

[kittyboy]

Sorry for not getting back to you sooner.

You'll be more than fine not second guessing a -B15 long block with the 1.9 blower for your goal and within a reasonable price range. 91 octane gasoline is not ideal in the higher power boosted range, you'll need to bump it up if your planning high power pulls for sure, 94 works well for me overall with reasonable timing set and fuel targeted at 11.1AFR WOT. You'll need DW300c pumps and ID1050x injectors. I'd suggest prior to the install swap the balancer with an ATI, swap the oil pump with a stock LSA, and barbell with an 'Improved Performance' brand. B15 is going to retain some heat over the LSA, but in your climate it should never be a problem. As far as making a consideration based on a warranty, I wouldn't plan a warranty to save you in any scenario regardless of where purchased. I have had very good results running Amsoil 10-40, I'm in Washington with similar climate, just make sure to always warm your engine before getting crazy. I have regular Blackstone reports each 2000 miles, so I have a good trend to make the oil selection based on personal data. First two reports I was running Mobile1 5W30. Boost eats bearings or whatever other high performance words used. If your not constantly rocketing around, you'll probably never have any issues. If you need part numbers let me know. take care

 

[Rubber Duck]

thanks for that insight.
I had considered changing the ratio a bit or possibly adding meth injection to provide some additional
safety.

You can try either.
Also, if E85 is available in your area, that works real well with these engines.

If you’re not interested in some big horsepower number, then just back the pulley ratio down, unless you have E85 available to you.

Some of the meth spray kits, don’t feed all the cylinders evenly.
That can cause big issues.

Cheers

 

[FINNDIAN]

You can try either.
Also, if E85 is available in your area, that works real well with these engines.

If you’re not interested in some big horsepower number, then just back the pulley ratio down, unless you have E85 available to you.

Some of the meth spray kits, don’t feed all the cylinders evenly.
That can cause big issues.

Cheers

no E85 around here. 91 is the highest and It's consistency is questionable.

 

[Rubber Duck]

no E85 around here. 91 is the highest and It's consistency is questionable.

Then if you do not desire to back the pulley ratio down, your going
to have to look at octane boosters. Toluene is a good one, which
you can pick up at a local paint store.

If you can locate a good body shop supplier, many of them have a
higher quality product. Also, be sure you filter it.

Start out by adding about 10% to your tank, and move up from there as might be required.

Toluene is not corrosive, as it is simply a byproduct of producing gasoline.
Toluene is what the gasoline companies use to increase Octane.

Good Luck!

 

[FINNDIAN]

That'd be a pricey fill up. I'll definitely need to take some power out if I'm going to drive it.

 

[Rubber Duck]

That'd be a pricey fill up. I'll definitely need to take some power out if I'm going to drive it.
View attachment 163225

I remember paying something like $1.50 a gallon, some years back..lol
After I suggested it to @kittyboy he wrote a few posts regarding how it helped him.

The good thing about it is; It Works!
And it does not discolor you plugs. . .

A quality Meth Spray, which sprays an even amount of Meth into each cylinder, is another solution.

But taking the power out, is for sure, the cheapest solution to your problem.

Cheers

 

[FINNDIAN]

I remember paying something like $1.50 a gallon, some years back..lol
After I suggested it to @kittyboy he wrote a few posts regarding how it helped him.

The good thing about it is; It Works!
And it does not discolor you plugs. . .

A quality Meth Spray, which sprays an even amount of Meth into each cylinder, is another solution.

But taking the power out, is for sure, the cheapest solution to your problem.

Cheers

Yes. Meth inj has definitely been on my Radar.

 

[Rubber Duck]

Yes. Meth inj has definitely been on my Radar.

If the engine you are building (built?) is similar to what you posted when opening this thread, then your going to have to come up with some 'Performance Solution', or reduce / limit the power of the engine.

What is your HP Goal now?. . . .

Cheers

 

[oldwestracing]

Then if you do not desire to back the pulley ratio down, your going
to have to look at octane boosters. Toluene is a good one, which
you can pick up at a local paint store.

If you can locate a good body shop supplier, many of them have a
higher quality product. Also, be sure you filter it.

Start out by adding about 10% to your tank, and move up from there as might be required.

Toluene is not corrosive, as it is simply a byproduct of producing gasoline.
Toluene is what the gasoline companies use to increase Octane.

Good Luck!

I used to use Toluene and Xylene in various mixtures back 20 years ago in my big turbo Grand National. Xylene by itself did very good. Would get it in 5 gal containers at the local paint store. It was a pain in the buttocks to keep up with but it did work very well. There are calculators online for figuring out the resulting octane based on your base gasoline. You are typically limited to about 30% max and you'll start seeing similar issues to E85 at some level with more annoying cold start symptoms. But again, it works well if you take the time to understand what you are doing....and assuming it's not overly expensive now. I have no idea how much it is these days.

 

[FINNDIAN]

If the engine you are building (built?) is similar to what you posted when opening this thread, then your going to have to come up with some 'Performance Solution', or reduce / limit the power of the engine.

What is your HP Goal now?. . . .

Cheers

It's looking like I'll just stick with the lsx376b15 that I have on order.
I've ordered a Lsa oil pump as per kittyboy's suggestion.
And will replace the dog bone also.
New stock blower with ZLI lid
I'm still unsure if I should upgrade the cam.
I've already discussed with Lt1z about his 2.5 cam.

My lsa dynoed at about 650 on e85.
I'm hoping to make similar power on 91. Meth added if necessary.

 

[Rubber Duck]

I used to use Toluene and Xylene in various mixtures back 20 years ago in my big turbo Grand National. Xylene by itself did very good. Would get it in 5 gal containers at the local paint store. It was a pain in the buttocks to keep up with but it did work very well. There are calculators online for figuring out the resulting octane based on your base gasoline. You are typically limited to about 30% max and you'll start seeing similar issues to E85 at some level with more annoying cold start symptoms. But again, it works well if you take the time to understand what you are doing....and assuming it's not overly expensive now. I have no idea how much it is these days.

Well Hello, and welcome back..
I have not seen you post in a while. . .

Funny thing; I think many of us that joined this forum in the
early days had a Grand National, as we both did..

-Xylene-
Xylene actually has a higher / better octane rating then does Toluene.
But it is corrosive, while Toluene is not.

I cut and pasted a post I made sometime back, just below,
for @kittyboy which contains that info.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

MMT in small amounts can produce a noticeable difference.
Larger amounts of MMT, when used in high temp applications, can cause engine miss-fires.

Toluene, in small amounts, will usually not provide for sufficient benefits.
But when we use large amounts of Toluene, this can provide for large benefits.

Too much Toluene, can cause engines not to fire up on a cold start.

If one begins with Pump E85, which has 15% 'Crap Gas', and one adds ~35% Toluene, by volume, one would now have E-50. However, both the RON & MON values would be greatly improved, as would the fuel sensitivity over Pump E85.

Typical Octane Rating for Pump E85 is;
RON __102 - 105
MON___85 - 87

Ethanol:
RON__109
MON___90

Toluene:
RON__121
MON__107

Xylene (very corrosive)
RON__118
MON__115

-for comparison-
VP C16 Race Gas
RON__117
MON__118

*** I suggest that anyone considering using any of the above octane boosters, first read about any applicable safety issues. With Toluene, which is a Hyrocarbon based fuel, as is gasoline; don't inhale it, use safety glasses, and keep a spray bottle of water along, with a soft rag to use when / if any gets on your paint.

For those who desire to understand about octane ratings for hydrocarbon fuels, search for and read about 2,2,4-Trimethylpentane, also known as Iso-Octane.

The performance of this fuel is the standard for octane ratings,
as it is referenced as 100 Octane.

I think I am now done with fuels..

Cheers

 

[Rubber Duck]

It's looking like I'll just stick with the lsx376b15 that I have on order.
I've ordered a Lsa oil pump as per kittyboy's suggestion.
And will replace the dog bone also.
New stock blower with ZLI lid
I'm still unsure if I should upgrade the cam.
I've already discussed with Lt1z about his 2.5 cam.

My lsa dynoed at about 650 on e85.
I'm hoping to make similar power on 91. Meth added if necessary.

You would be wise to overcome your fuel issues at those power levels.

The cylinder heads seem to be the same as the LS3 heads, without the Wing.

The camshaft is similar, if not exact to an earlier GM Performance oriented cam. But still too small (JMHO)!

Put some boost on this engine and they easily make ~635 -- ~665 HP.
***That's about 87% cylinder fill, and where the stock blower begins to 'Huff & Puff', and begins to cause the blower to begin generating heat..

At that power level then, it requires one to manage both heat and fuel, with a watchful eye. . .

----------------------------------------------------------------

Meth (wood), similar to Ethanol (sugar), has a very good RON Number, but the MON number, is still insufficient.

If your going with Meth, then simply add some Toluene to the Meth tank. That tends to last a while with most. . .

Cheers

 

[FINNDIAN]

The camshaft is similar, if not exact to an earlier GM Performance oriented cam.
But still too small (JMHO)!


If your going with Meth, then simply add some Toluene to the Meth tank. That tends to last a while with most. . .

Cheers

In you opinion, how much more cam would be beneficial? Would it be mainly for power gains or would there be other advantages included, (less heat, detonation)?

Toluene in the meth tank..... interesting idea. Are you saying a mixture or just 100% toluene?

 

[Rubber Duck]

In you opinion, how much more cam would be beneficial? Would it be mainly for power gains or would there be other advantages included, (less heat, detonation)?

Toluene in the meth tank..... interesting idea. Are you saying a mixture or just 100% toluene?

The camshaft you require, will be dependent on your HP Goals, along with what engine rpm you desire to shift at, along with how your cylinder heads flow.

The more your heads flow, the less camshaft duration your engine will require. And conversely; insufficient cylinder heads, require a larger cam.

I used to help forum members sort that out, but it became
simpler to turn them over to Matt @Lt1z, which, for the most part, I did years back now.

You desire to spray Meth, as it has a high rate of vaporization,
which in turn helps to cool the cylinders.

Add to that a percentage of Toluene. Toluene requires much heat to vaporize, but possesses a high MON Rating.

How much Toluene. . .
Depends, but you can work that out empirically. Start out with a 25% mix, and work out the appropriate 'Tonic' on the Dyno.

There are other highly useful octane boosters, but some are dangerous, while others tend to either color, or foul your spark plugs. Work with Toluene, and you will stay safe. Just be sure you filter it, and don't get it on your paint..lol

Before I became ill, I was building a 434 CID Engine, with 11.0:1 Static Compression, and a 2300 ported blower.

B-15 Engine Block, E85, Meth Spray, along with Toluene, and one other Octane Booster. This sort of thing is not for everyone, but it can be made to work.

In most cases, it's simply a matter of how far does one desire to push things..

In your case, or in @kittyboy case, simply spraying meth, or adding Toluene, or a little of both, might be all you need.

C16 contains about 25 percent Toluene. . . .

Please also take notice that there are three (3) types of Xylene. . .
oXylene.......100.3........100.0......100.0
mXylene......115.0........119.5......121.5
pXylene.......109.6........117.1......122.0

That's all for tonight..

 

[FINNDIAN]

current situation update.

still waiting for the LSX376 B15 engine I have on backorder. Anticipating that it may ship in April or May.

Now I'm having supercharger thoughts.
Since I need to spin the 1.9 slower to create more reliability......
I had ordered a zl1 lid to ship with my engine and was going to order a new fresh 1.9 blower (I would still need to reinforce the brick and get a different pulley)

Now I'm thinking it may make more sense to just bite the bullet and get a magnuson 2650 kit for the LSX.
Chevrolet Camaro ZL1/Cadillac CTS-V LSA 6.2L V8 Magnum 2650 Supercharg
I don't know much about them but they look to have a better cooler and being a larger displacement it should create less heat?

Cost is probably double the 1.9 but now's the time......right?

 

[SaskV]

Since I'm having a coffee break from reassembling my LSA, I'll add a couple of observations, keep in mind I AM NO EXPERT!

Don't discount the lowly 1.9 SC. Last year, there was a "built" (unsure if it was bigger than 376c.i. or not) ZL1 at the track when I was running my car, DR's etc. It was running a Magnuson 2650 as well. My full weight wagon, with stock cam, injectors, heads, bottom end, with a ported 1.9 along with the other normal assortment of bolt-ons, was almost a full second quicker in the 1/4 mile. I ran a best of 10.86/129.8mph, and a dozen mid 10.90's with similar mph's when the DA was worse on subsequent days.

I realize there are a ton of variables that affected both outcomes, and I'm certainly no authority on the subject, (now that I think about it, on any subject for that matter LOL), but I have learned a lot in the last 5 years of owning this platform, just publishing some real world experience and observations.

BTW, I am still going to run the 1.9 in my upgraded combo.

 

[kittyboy]

Since I'm having a coffee break from reassembling my LSA, I'll add a couple of observations, keep in mind I AM NO EXPERT!

Don't discount the lowly 1.9 SC. Last year, there was a "built" (unsure if it was bigger than 376c.i. or not) ZL1 at the track when I was running my car, DR's etc. It was running a Magnuson 2650 as well. My full weight wagon, with stock cam, injectors, heads, bottom end, with a ported 1.9 along with the other normal assortment of bolt-ons, was almost a full second quicker in the 1/4 mile. I ran a best of 10.86/129.8mph, and a dozen mid 10.90's with similar mph's when the DA was worse on subsequent days.

I realize there are a ton of variables that affected both outcomes, and I'm certainly no authority on the subject, (now that I think about it, on any subject for that matter LOL), but I have learned a lot in the last 5 years of owning this platform, just publishing some real world experience and observations.

BTW, I am still going to run the 1.9 in my upgraded combo.

Based on my limited experience, I think a 1.9 Eaton with 3.6 pulley ratio is plenty running a 376. Keep in mind my experience is based running gasoline with 25% toluene. DO NOT get super aggressive with high end timing. I was experimenting with aggressive timing that caused a slightly lifted TTY bolted head, slight rear main seal leak, and some blown valve seals, not to mention permanent reduction in cylinder compression due to rings. You are able to produce more power than the engine can handle if not conservatively setting the timing. And I don't mean detonation or excessive heat, I mean way too much power! I realize this is a no brainer for those with more experience than I have. My situation could have ended worse had I not been carefully monitoring the engine at the time, but knowing when to stop is a fine line, art/science. My belief is, had I not had TTY stock head bolts, my piston rings would have disintegrated. Case pressure relief is also critical, make sure you have adequate case pressure relief at WOT. Oil flow and pump is also important, I have a stock GM 6665 pump. However, anything above 6000rpm begins the risk of cavitation with a 6665 pump. I feel the stock CTSV 2289 pump is a better pump option with barbell when installing a B15. Not sure if you're building an LSA or B15? But I think you should have more than enough power with a 1.9.

 

[Rubber Duck]

Since I'm having a coffee break from reassembling my LSA, I'll add a couple of observations, keep in mind I AM NO EXPERT!

Don't discount the lowly 1.9 SC. Last year, there was a "built" (unsure if it was bigger than 376c.i. or not) ZL1 at the track when I was running my car, DR's etc. It was running a Magnuson 2650 as well. My full weight wagon, with stock cam, injectors, heads, bottom end, with a ported 1.9 along with the other normal assortment of bolt-ons, was almost a full second quicker in the 1/4 mile. I ran a best of 10.86/129.8mph, and a dozen mid 10.90's with similar mph's when the DA was worse on subsequent days.

I realize there are a ton of variables that affected both outcomes, and I'm certainly no authority on the subject, (now that I think about it, on any subject for that matter LOL), but I have learned a lot in the last 5 years of owning this platform, just publishing some real world experience and observations.

BTW, I am still going to run the 1.9 in my upgraded combo.

How much air the intake side of the engine requires, depends on your HP Goal, as well as at what Engine RPM you desire to shift at. Depending on your HP Goal, is what will determine how you should proceed to build your engine.

Piston Speed, is tied to Engine RPM. If you only have sufficient piston speed to make 500 HP, and you're after 1000 HP, well you are headed up a river without sufficient paddles, if your going to attempt to use an inefficient roots style blower. Bad Idea!..lol

When the piston moves downward on the intake cycle, the piston leaves a void and generates a depression across the intake valve. If the engine is not prepared to rev high enough, then the mass flow entering the cylinder will not be sufficient to meet your HP Goals.

Turbochargers have no problem filling the difference when the engine rpm is not sufficient. They can easily complete filling a cylinder that is only 50% filled, per the imposed HP requirement. But an inefficient 'roots style blower' cannot.

Absolute Pressure Ratios (ABS) can be deceiving.

Just because you double the ABS Pressure Ratio, does not mean you will double the 'mass charge' entering the cylinder.

We can go through the math if you would like..lol

What is your HP Goal with the 376 CID, B-15?
Other questions would then be. . .

-just a few thoughts for you-
At what engine rpm do you desire to shift at?
What do the heads flow?
What are the camshafts valve events of the camshaft?

What Fuel. . .

-my experiences to stay safe-
If pump gas then stay around 650 - 660 hp.
E85 can add 75 hp to 100 hp.

In all instances where on of the engines is going to see much more manifold pressure, then one would see with a stock vehicle. . . Be sure you save enough money to be sure you can improve the mass flow recovery system, or suffer the consequences of attempting to boost the air and no cool it sufficiently before it enters the cylinders.

Cheers

 

[FINNDIAN]

Based on my limited experience, I think a 1.9 Eaton with 3.6 pulley ratio is plenty running a 376. Keep in mind my experience is based running gasoline with 25% toluene. DO NOT get super aggressive with high end timing. I was experimenting with aggressive timing that caused a slightly lifted TTY bolted head, slight rear main seal leak, and some blown valve seals, not to mention permanent reduction in cylinder compression due to rings. You are able to produce more power than the engine can handle if not conservatively setting the timing. And I don't mean detonation or excessive heat, I mean way too much power! I realize this is a no brainer for those with more experience than I have. My situation could have ended worse had I not been carefully monitoring the engine at the time, but knowing when to stop is a fine line, art/science. My belief is, had I not had TTY stock head bolts, my piston rings would have disintegrated. Case pressure relief is also critical, make sure you have adequate case pressure relief at WOT. Oil flow and pump is also important, I have a stock GM 6665 pump. However, anything above 6000rpm begins the risk of cavitation with a 6665 pump. I feel the stock CTSV 2289 pump is a better pump option with barbell when installing a B15. Not sure if you're building an LSA or B15? But I think you should have more than enough power with a 1.9.

Thanks for the input @kittyboy . I have ordered a new LSA oil pump to install on the LSX and will source the upgraded barbell all on your previous advice. I have sent you a pm inquiring on oil pan, cooler, front and rear cover interchangeability as I'm still unsure on those items. My oil pan and cooler need to be replaced.

How much air the intake side of the engine requires, depends on your HP Goal, as well as at what Engine RPM you desire to shift at. Depending on your HP Goal, is what will determine how you should proceed to build your engine.


We can go through the math if you would like..lol

What is your HP Goal with the 376 CID, B-15?
Other questions would then be. . .

-just a few thoughts for you-
At what engine rpm do you desire to shift at?
What do the heads flow?
What are the camshafts valve events of the camshaft?

What Fuel. . .

-my experiences to stay safe-
If pump gas then stay around 650 - 660 hp.
E85 can add 75 hp to 100 hp.

In all instances where on of the engines is going to see much more manifold pressure, then one would see with a stock vehicle. . . Be sure you save enough money to be sure you can improve the mass flow recovery system, or suffer the consequences of attempting to boost the air and no cool it sufficiently before it enters the cylinders.

Cheers

I appreciate the sharing your knowledge @Rubber Duck and I still have a lot of unknowns.

I think the 650 ish + is where I need to shoot for since my fuel octane is limited (91) and I'd like to drive this car without issue.
I gather the heads are a little better than the LSA heads but don't know exactly
rpm, I don't see why I would want to spin it much higher than the LSA if I want to keep it reliable.
I don't know the specs of the cam included with the B15 but I have not discounted changing the cam if it will be beneficial to building a powerful, more reliable motor. I have spoken to @Lt1z about this a bit already.
The car already has the upgraded Vader cooler and underhood tank.
My thought process with the 2650 is not to make more boost but to make boost with cooler intake temps and be able to spin it slower than I would have to spin the 1.9 to acheive the same power. Also since I'll be replacing it anyway I may as well spend more now and leave room. Would I be giving up a significant amount of lower rpm driveable power with the 2650 compare to the 1.9 that may offset the advantage of better cooling?