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Sounds like the dealer didnt cross their Ts and dot the I's.

But it's also wierd for a car maker to be able to retroactively change the available options for the used market. I guess its good in a way if you want those options later - but still a caveat emptor situation.



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Agreed. The whole remotely updateable car scenario def introduces some new precedents that need to be worked thru and hopefully standardized and regulated. For now Tesla can do this because there are probably no laws or rules against it. But I'd prefer that some level of regs exist if for no other reason than to clarify for all parties what the deal is. If a feature is removed that should be made absolutely clear via some sort of disclosure.

Really I look at this like some Porsche, Audi, and Merc cars. Two models can have different power levels purely thru the tune, but are mechanically identical. When they are able, why cant they "unlock" more power for a fee?

I also think the act of pulling the feature does amount to double charging for it, and that's another great point in favor of regulation as well.

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Agreed. The whole remotely updateable car scenario def introduces some new precedents that need to be worked thru and hopefully standardized and regulated. For now Tesla can do this because there are probably no laws or rules against it. But I'd prefer that some level of regs exist if for no other reason than to clarify for all parties what the deal is. If a feature is removed that should be made absolutely clear via some sort of disclosure.

Really I look at this like some Porsche, Audi, and Merc cars. Two models can have different power levels purely thru the tune, but are mechanically identical. When they are able, why cant they "unlock" more power for a fee?

I also think the act of pulling the feature does amount to double charging for it, and that's another great point in favor of regulation as well.

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Yeah all of these kind of boil down to the whole argument about if you actually "own" anything anymore, especially things like a Tesla but also more and more things like agricultural equipment and is tangentially related to the whole "right to repair" thing.
If Tesla is able to disable and re-enable options for a charge, then no one really ever owns that thing, the first owner was essentially just leasing the ability to use it.
Also, if you aren't able to diagnose or repair something yourself do you really own it?

This article shows the military struggles with the same thing now too. There for sure needs to be some sort of regulation on these things or corporations will continue to take advantage and we as consumers end up losing.

 

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if they can remove it they may as well allow you to rent it, do they offer that?
like satellite radio trial run and then you pay for it
 

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The car and driver Taycan vs Model S head to head is interesting and confirms what most of us have been saying all along (Porsche sandbags like they always have).

This graph shows the differences best.

Honestly not knocking Tesla at all but it turns out all of the bench racing was bullshit (as bench racing always is).

The Tesla wins on price for sure, but performance (especially after one or two glory runs) it isn't even close...
143941


A direct quote:
"[For] all the discussion of the Model S’s fleetness, it is incredibly fussy to achieve its max-acceleration times. It must be fully charged, and using the Ludicrous Plus mode requires preheating the battery for 45 minutes. After the initial hero run, the Tesla’s times fall off quickly, slowing to the point that we were jotting notes while waiting for the quarter-mile to arrive. "
 

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The car and driver Taycan vs Model S head to head is interesting and confirms what most of us have been saying all along (Porsche sandbags like they always have).

This graph shows the differences best.

Honestly not knocking Tesla at all but it turns out all of the bench racing was bullshit (as bench racing always is).

The Tesla wins on price for sure, but performance (especially after one or two glory runs) it isn't even close...
View attachment 143941

A direct quote:
"[For] all the discussion of the Model S’s fleetness, it is incredibly fussy to achieve its max-acceleration times. It must be fully charged, and using the Ludicrous Plus mode requires preheating the battery for 45 minutes. After the initial hero run, the Tesla’s times fall off quickly, slowing to the point that we were jotting notes while waiting for the quarter-mile to arrive. "
All valid points, and a great job by Porsche. Just remember, Tesla isn't sitting back, they too are evolving their technology and vehicles. Competition will help drive EV development just as it has with ICE vehicles for 100 years now. Perhaps some insight to what the future holds:
www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/car-technology/amp29086205/modified-tesla-model-s-beats-porsche-taycan-nurburgring/
 

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I thought Cadillac stated they plan to be all, or mostly all, EV in the somewhat near future.
 

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Discussion Starter #848
Hummer EV with 1000hp should compete.


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Discussion Starter #849 (Edited)
The car and driver Taycan vs Model S head to head is interesting and confirms what most of us have been saying all along (Porsche sandbags like they always have).

This graph shows the differences best.

Honestly not knocking Tesla at all but it turns out all of the bench racing was bullshit (as bench racing always is).

The Tesla wins on price for sure, but performance (especially after one or two glory runs) it isn't even close...
View attachment 143941

A direct quote:
"[For] all the discussion of the Model S’s fleetness, it is incredibly fussy to achieve its max-acceleration times. It must be fully charged, and using the Ludicrous Plus mode requires preheating the battery for 45 minutes. After the initial hero run, the Tesla’s times fall off quickly, slowing to the point that we were jotting notes while waiting for the quarter-mile to arrive. "
I had no idea the Tesla’s tanked so bad after a couple runs.

This is worrisome for EV trucks towing heavy loads.

Tri, can you confirm this performance drop?

2.5 sec to 6+sec 0-60 is a massive drop.

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I had no idea the Tesla’s tanked so bad after a couple runs.

This is worrisome for EV trucks towing heavy loads.

Tri, can you confirm this performance drop?

2.5 sec to 6+sec 0-60 is a massive drop.

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I have read that for the Tesla it is not the battery so much that is mainly responsible for this cliff like performance drop off, it is mostly the motor and inverter that overheats in Ludacris mode.

The car computer won’t let you go into ludicrous mode unless the battery has a certain charge level but I am 99% sure the 0-60 performance would have come back if they waited for the motor and inverter to cool after each run. How long they need to cool would be a really interesting test!

The battery (up to a point) performs better at higher temp which is why the Tesla needs to preheat the pack for up to 45 mins to reach the hero numbers quoted.
Porsche has much better cooling in the inverter and motor and obviously specified those two pieces of the drivetrain to more or less be able to deliver their rated performance “continuously” until the battery is flat.




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I had no idea the Tesla’s tanked so bad after a couple runs.

This is worrisome for EV trucks towing heavy loads.

Tri, can you confirm this performance drop?

2.5 sec to 6+sec 0-60 is a massive drop.

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It's odd. I'm guessing there's potentially something wrong with the test car. I did a dozen 0-60 runs (but not 1/4 mile). The first 5 or 6 were 2.41 to 2.43 seconds, surprisingly consistent but what you should expect with an electric motor. After that the times DID drop. 2.5, 2.6, 2.7, leveling at 2.8.

My testing was done around 65 or 70F.

I've done a few 1/4 mile runs and they come in at 10.5 to 10.55 seconds trapping 126 to 127mph. The older "non-Raven" cars trapped about 124 to 125.

My observation is that Tesla still has issues with consistency. I'd bet money they got a car with some kind of assembly or build issue.

As us V2 owners know - many of us got brand new cars from Caddy that were down on power too. Lots of us noticed a nice bump after getting a new SC or adjusting the bypass valve properly.

So it really wouldn't surprise any of us in we found out that Tesla had some kind of flow or cooling issue. These electric motors are VERY sensitive to overheating. So the computer cuts power fast to curtail damage. It wouldn't take much and would probably only manifest in extreme testing like this.

So here's some context missing from the testing that's worth mentioning though:

The Taycan is capable of 750hp output but only when in launch control mode. Otherwise you get just 616hp. So unless you plan to activate launch mode at every stop, the Tesla will generally have 740-775hp on tap while the Taycan Turbo S wont. Even in Sport Plus Ultra Chrono mode or whatever.

The consistency from Porsche isn't better engineering (necessarily). Its the 800V battery. Because power (electrical power) is voltage times amperage, if you double the voltage you can make the same power with half the amps. Since amps are the main heat culprit, running higher voltage cuts heat generation.

So why didn't Tesla go that route years ago? A few reasons.

First - higher voltages are just riskier. You think a Tesla has potential fire issues? An 800V system will arc and burn far more readily if damaged, shorted out, crashed, etc. So extra safeguards and design is needed. And it's still dangerous for first responders. But so is flammable gasoline.

Next - your home power, where most people charge, is usually max 240v. So the only advantage in fast charging is at a specialized 800V DC fast charger. The high speed chargers for Porsche are VERY limited right now. When the first Taycans arrived on US solid there were literally like only 3 stations.

Overall, 800V designs are superior. But that's only become a good option lately. It helps mostly with performance consistency. But it makes regen braking challenging and you can see this in Car & Driver's assessment of braking. The Tesla had better brake feel in their eyes, and despite giant carbon ceramic brakes and more tire, the Tesla nearly matches the Taycan in stopping from 70-0 in only 1 ft more.

EV trucks towing heavy loads are actually zero problem at all - at least for the motors. Towing with electric is all about pack capacity. Cooling -as we all know -can be done, even in a V2 with immense underhood heat.

Theres a few more items to mention. Gotta handle some work RN...will post more later on.

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I have read that for the Tesla it is not the battery so much that is mainly responsible for this cliff like performance drop off, it is mostly the motor and inverter that overheats in Ludacris mode.

The car computer won’t let you go into ludicrous mode unless the battery has a certain charge level but I am 99% sure the 0-60 performance would have come back if they waited for the motor and inverter to cool after each run. How long they need to cool would be a really interesting test!

The battery (up to a point) performs better at higher temp which is why the Tesla needs to preheat the pack for up to 45 mins to reach the hero numbers quoted.
Porsche has much better cooling in the inverter and motor and obviously specified those two pieces of the drivetrain to more or less be able to deliver their rated performance “continuously” until the battery is flat.




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Pretty much on point. The Taycan has similar cooling to the Tesla. On EV's the engineers tend to use only the radiator and scoops that are absolutely needed. Main reason is they are just drag scoops whenever that ulta peak cooling isn't needed, which is most of the time.

Most of the Taycan's heat advantage though isn't due to more/better cooling - it just makes less heat by nature of the 800V setup. It needs less cooling because it makes less heat. It's a different set of physics than we are used to with gas engines. All fuel makes heat and theres a more or less direct correlation between power and heat generation. With EV's there are things that change the heat generation equation.

In my experience I'm betting I didnt see much degradation because I circled a short loop or otherwise kept moving a little between pulls. Even 15 to 30 seconds of forward motion at 30-45mph is enough to shed heat from the motors. The motors are actually fairly small so there isn't really much mass to shed heat from. It builds quickly but also sheds fast.

The Model S still uses an induction style rear motor. This type of motor can reach higher peak power because it can generate a very strong mag field and you can play tricks with the field a bit via the electronics. But because you are using current to energize an electromagnet versus a permanent magnet, it does create more heat.

Fundamentally this is why the older Tesla still has more power than the Taycan, but the Taycan makes up for it with the 2 speed gearbox out back and solid attention to cooling inside the motor.

Cooling needs are easily met with a modest radiator and pump. But since the motor is small but makes a good bit of heat that's where extra attention is needed.

Tesla's Model 3 does better because it uses PM motors and has a few other minor tweaks. And in track/race mode it goes fun fans and pumps all the time.

Net that you need to know - cooling isn't anywhere near as big a challenge with EV's as it is with gas engines. Gas engines convert about 70-75% of the energy in a gallon of gas into heat. EV's are closer to 95% efficient so only about 3% is heat and 2% is drivetrain loss. Theres some inverter loss too. But all waste is super impactful to range, so EV makers tend to push them as small as possible even though they are low to begin with.

Much like gas cars, the only ones that wont overheat are ones that are purpose built and usually more expensive. Everything else is mostly set up for more typical use. You could go all out...but you'll draw more power, have more aero drag, or have other tradeoffs.

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Discussion Starter #853
Tri, thanks for clarifying that the Tesla does not go into a limp mode and drop to 6 sec + 0-60 and 15 sec+ 1/4 mile.


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Discussion Starter #855
If I was Tesla, I would make car and driver print a retraction.


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Tri, thanks for clarifying that the Tesla does not go into a limp mode and drop to 6 sec + 0-60 and 15 sec+ 1/4 mile.


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Well - it probably will under the right conditions. And as I said - entirely possible their cars aren't made very consistently. You could get a good one (which it appears I did) or a dud. They def need better quality control...no doubt in my mind that is at the root of at least some issues.

6 sec 0-60 times would feel painful. I've never had any drop in performance that was notable. But I bet if I tracked raced the car hard it wouldn't hold up. It's not built for that. But in the V2 guys did brake pads and fluid swap, HX upgrades, and lots more to track the car. I'm sure if you REALLY wanted to, you could do it.

I read today where a Model 3 with a bunch of suspension and brake updates matched a McLaren F1 track time at Tsukuba Circuit. Needed tires, bunch of suspension parts, and a brake upgrade. But no power or cooling mods that I saw. 305 Cup 2 tires on all 4 four corners. So if you wanna write the check, you can.

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If I was Tesla, I would make car and driver print a retraction.


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Why? They still rated the Tesla above the Porsche. Had better brake feel (better than a $200k Porsche?!?). Better ergonomics. Better comfort. Better space. Better price.

Hell - the Tesla managed to stop from 70mph within 1 foot of the Porsche even with tiny tires and brakes by comparison to the huge meats and giant carbon ceramics on the Porsche.

I dont see what the big deal is. Everyone knows the Tesla is not a track car. But experts seem to think it's a damn good car.

Now if you're just trying to get a rise out of me? Mission accomplished LOL!

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Tri,

What part of my responses are trying to get a rise out of you?

I asked for your experience compared to car and driver report that the Tesla goes into some form of limp mode.

I am defending Tesla here.




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Tri,

What part of my responses are trying to get a rise out of you?

I asked for your experience compared to car and driver report that the Tesla goes into some form of limp mode.

I am defending Tesla here.




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I thought that was the whole point of this forum...to poke each other and get a rise! C'mon man...I'm just messing with ya!

But seriously - dont think for a sec that there aren't issues with Tesla, both the cars and the company. I need to go update my thread with a post about all the crap I dont like. I think a healthy view of the good and bad is always appreciated and beneficial.

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