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Discussion Starter · #21 · (Edited)
This may be a simple over pressure event.
I don’t yet know what these pumps and regulator are allowing.
I WILL find out.


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I'd say pressure. Looks like it ballooned then split.

Luckily it's an easy fix.
 

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For those wondering what the Surly Coupe’s ALM-supplied hose looks like, here it is:







Over pressured?
or Chemically attacked?
I don’t know.

It was installed a few days ago and has been submerged in 91 Octane Non-Ethanol gasoline since install.


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Looks exactly like what happened to me.

Glad this is case. Sucks....but better than being worse
 
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I had the same issue - I think someone was selling off low grade hose as high quality PTFE and Adam was the lucky winner. There are not a lot of specs provided when buying this stuff in bulk (I looked at one point).

Be careful getting those clamps off so you don't damage the fuel bucket, etc.

I used a small pick to pry the locking mechanism apart and then disassembled.

I do recommend running the OeM relief valve unless you plan on running 70psi+ rail pressure. It solves a lot of problems.

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For what it's worth, this is the hose I used. It has survived 2 years on stock pumps, standard 93 octane, no E85 used. When I took my pump out after 2 years it was good as new.
 

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I had the same issue - I think someone was selling off low grade hose as high quality PTFE and Adam was the lucky winner. There are not a lot of specs provided when buying this stuff in bulk (I looked at one point).

Be careful getting those clamps off so you don't damage the fuel bucket, etc.

I used a small pick to pry the locking mechanism apart and then disassembled.

I do recommend running the OeM relief valve unless you plan on running 70psi+ rail pressure. It solves a lot of problems.

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Adam getting a bad batch would explain a lot.

I'm using the stock relief.
 

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Discussion Starter · #28 ·
That hose appears identical to the hose I bought (POST 13) except the dimensions are slightly different. Yours is 180x10, mine is 160x9.
I'm certain the 10mm would be much easier to install. The material and shape (ribs) look the same.
 

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Discussion Starter · #29 · (Edited)
I’ve determined that 10mm would be the preferred hose diameter. The 9mm required far too much work to make fit.
The hose length should be 160mm to maybe 180mm.
I’m about to head to my daughters to reinstall.
I have lost a tremendous amount of time trying to devise a fix for breaking this




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MrSurly,

Looks like you have one of the more recent hats since you have the blue and red fittings. (I have the same kit on my bench)

Sorry you had to deal with this but thank you for the correct part and fix. Im going to be replacing my tank and would cringe if I had to do that twice from a junk hose.


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Discussion Starter · #31 ·
I bought this hat in the last month or so.
The car is back together and running, my fix on the teeny hose should last forever I hope.
I’ll post some detail pics of that as well.
I don’t have the laptop available but I should have a mechanical gauge to stick on it.


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Discussion Starter · #32 ·
Mechanical gauge video. A bit surprising.

DW300s, DW regulator. I left it the same setup in order to see the pressure it was supplying.
https://vimeo.com/647605655


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Mechanical gauge video. A bit surprising.

DW300s, DW regulator. I left it the same setup in order to see the pressure it was supplying.
https://vimeo.com/647605655


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You put in the DW pressure regulator then, which is around 97psi opening pressure, I think.

I get the same result every time - spikes to 103psi then tapers down to 83-86psi until start.

You can change the priming duration in the ECM to lower that, but with a proper hose it's no biggie.

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Discussion Starter · #34 ·
Are you running the DW reg?


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Yes. ! )

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Apologies for being late to the discussion here. It suggests a lower level of concern than is accurate, so please excuse my tardiness. This has been arguably the busiest week of the year for me professionally and personally.

The percentage of hose failure that I am aware of is low, much lower than the unfortunate numbers by forum owners suggest. I have been informed of a number of failures equaling approximate 3% fallout. If it were higher, a general recall or other disclosure would have been fitting IMO.

The failures do seem to correlate higher with the DW relief valve. This valve was not out when the fuel hat was released and the original hose evaluation was done. Like random mentioned, there is little info out there on hose operating pressure or burst pressure, so nothing to hold the manufacturer to on my end or any metric to design to.

Empirically we have hundreds of these hoses out in use with anywhere from a few miles to thousands of miles. The hoses on my previous V2 are still in tact 4 years and 10k miles later. This with regularly overrunning the factory pressure relief at 76 psi. Randoms hose was good for a year plus for example with a good. number of miles. His was also a different batch of hose so this issue has carried over across lots.

I have since sourced and experimented with the thicker hose similar to quantum’s offering. It’s all made overseas and similar to the oem hose used in the factory modules (the entire assy made overseas in that case). While it has a smaller inner diameter and is more rigid, it is thicker and seems to handle the DW relief pressure values better. The transition to that hose will be complete by the first of next year.

Regarding the prime cycle and 110psi pressures, that seems to happen anytime the relief valve is swapped. It also appears that when the car is warm, thus the fuel is warm, the hose is more prone to popping when it gets hit with that 110psi dead head. At least this was the failure mode for blades, random, and now Mr. Surly.

There is a background scheme that will not prime the pumps repeatedly. (A certain amount of key off time required before key on will trigger a prime cycle). While we can edit the prime cycle length in hptuners, we don’t know the cycle time for priming in general.

While I have communicated with OP via dm, please let me know if there is anything else I need to do to offset the inconvenience. Having had various fuel system stuff come up as a result of designing and testing various solutions, I know firsthand how annoying and stressful this stuff can be. I don’t wish that on anyone, and it is counter to my goal of an excellent customer experience.

So to sum it up, the US made ptfe hose used currently is being phased out for the Asian alternative that seems to function more reliably at higher pressures. I am unaware of any comparably constructed US made hose at this time.
 

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My opinion (worth what you paid for it) on the DW relief valve, is that it's not worth it unless you are running substantially more boost than stock. So much so that your fuel pressure minus boost would be lower than 43 psi. As long as the net pressure drop across the injector is more than 43, you should should stick with the stock relief valve. Example, my car makes 67 psi at wot with DW300's, aux pump and stock relief valve. My blower makes ~16 psi in great weather. I've got 51 psi delta, so the injectors (ID1300's) still flow over 1300 cc/min.

Turning up the fuel pressure to overcome injectors that are running out of fuel is a bandaid. You make the injectors flow a little more, but the fuel pumps flow less. If you are running out of injector, upgrade.
 
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Discussion Starter · #38 · (Edited)
What I did to change to the “upgraded” hose (tubing).
The hose supplied on the recently acquired ALM hat was a clear corrugated plastic 10mm tubing that I assume is Teflon (PTFE). This hose is very flexible, but Teflon -without a braid or jacket- is a low pressure material. I have no information on its actual rating/brand/material detail.
After this hose burst, I replaced it with a black plastic tube that I believe is made of Nylon. The hose I had on hand is 9mm x 160mm. It is corrugated and much stiffer than the clear hose, much tougher to crush; it obviously is a higher pressure hose, but again, I can’t tell you it’s nominal pressure rating.
It’s worth noting that it does need to be corrugated plastic tubing because in this install there is not enough room for a rubber hose (too thick) and a plain non-corrugated plastic hose would not be able to make the bend needed without kinking.


I will note that if doing again I would order a 10mm diameter to greatly ease the install.



The supplied hose barb fitting on the ALM hat has two barbs (it’s designed for rubber push-lock hose) and I found it necessary to remove one of the barbs to accommodate this plastic tubing and be able to use a clamp.
I used a heat gun to work on the plastic and it took quite a bit of work to get the tube over the big barb.
Additionally, the clamp size that was just right for this was also too small to slide over the plastic after it was on, again because the push-lock barb is rather extreme.
I had to open up the Oetiker clamp, slip it over and then ‘close’ it before crimping. The next-size-up clamp seemed too loose to me.

Note: If I were building these, I would consider replacing the Push-Lock fitting with a 3/8” hose barb fitting.... and stick with 9mm tubing.







Now, to connect the hose to the pump outlet.

Due to the limited room in the bucket, the 90* turn off of the pump needs to be as short as it can be. To this purpose, I trimmed the cuff of the hose about 10mm.
I warmed the hose a bit and pushed it onto the pump nipple and then slid the Oetiker clamp into place and crimped.
The 9mm size works great on this nipple.





This is how this hose works out with the bucket at full extension so a longer hose is not needed.


I don’t know if this bucket ever really extends much; at install with a near-full tank it compressed quite a bit.


That takes care of the discharge hose; now, to fix what I broke.
I managed to break off a tiny plastic nipple that is part of the transfer pump system in the bucket.
Of course, NONE of these bits are available except as a complete module from Caddy... so that means I MUST fix this.


I can’t claim to understand the system, here, but it appears that this tiny line is on the suction side of it. It looks to be a siphon-break. Anyways, I need it connected. I found some leftover ‘forgotten-hobby’ material after much searching and set about this repair.
The shoulder of this plastic piece isn’t long enough to hold a hose slipped over it.
I found some 5/32” OD brass tubing, drilled and pressed it into place.
I thought I could get the tiny plastic hose over the brass but it just refuses to stretch. If I had used (had) 1/8” it would’ve been cake. Since the tiny tube fit only a little bit over the brass and didn’t seem secure, I used some 3/32 ID Tygon tubing to very tightly sleeve the assembly.
I feel really satisfied that this will be good in the long term






Pro tip: the reason I broke this (besides being generally ham-handed) was that I did not remove that little widget assembly from the bucket while doing the hat job. Adam, in his video, shows removing it. It simply pries up, held in
place only by an o-ring in the bucket, no clips or latches involved. Mine just refused to ‘pop out’, and I was putting a LOT of strain on it. I was convinced it would break, so I skipped it and did the hat swap successfully, despite not being able to fully separate the plastic bucket because of this tiny hose.

After the hose failure, I had to rework the whole thing, of course.
It was during this rework that I broke it.
I then needed to remove the widget, -no matter what- and it did come loose this time.
When reinstalling this widget you will need to pick the o-ring from the bucket and install it on the widget first, before pushing the widget in place.
 
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I don't have any experience with the ALM hat, but I am sure that he will make it right.

Years ago when I added a second pump to my TBSS, I used this submersible Russell hose. It lasted for 5+ years and 40k miles on a Procharged LS2 stroker build and was still in the truck when I sold it in 2018.

I still have a few small pieces left over.

Fluid Electrical wiring Gas Audio equipment Font


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Discussion Starter · #40 ·
The failures do seem to correlate higher with the DW relief valve.
I believe Blades is running the OEM regulator and DW300s
Regarding the prime cycle and 110psi pressures, that seems to happen anytime the relief valve is swapped. It also appears that when the car is warm, thus the fuel is warm, the hose is more prone to popping when it gets hit with that 110psi dead head. At least this was the failure mode for blades, random, and now Mr. Surly.
Apparently, a prime event can be triggered by system pressure falling below X. While I had the gauge on mine, I could trigger the prime function by venting rail pressure prior to start.
There is a background scheme that will not prime the pumps repeatedly. (A certain amount of key off time required before key on will trigger a prime cycle).
Mine saw initial prime to 105psi , subsequent starts prime to 87psi. No line pressure, primes to 100 again.
So to sum it up, the US made ptfe hose used currently is being phased out for the Asian alternative that seems to function more reliably at higher pressures. I am unaware of any comparably constructed US made hose at this time.
Adam, thank you for posting in the thread.
I like your product. The hat, itself, is the bee's knees.
I am a bit let down by the continued inclusion of hose that has a 'known failure rate' regardless how "marginal".
It happened to 100% of mine.

I will say that communication and support has been great; I appreciate the PMs.
I'll heartily recommend the ALM hat to anyone contemplating the 'hat repair' and include a mention of the upgrade hose.

I will take this opportunity to add 2cents of a suggestion: Replace the (red) AN to 3/8 Push-Lok barb with an AN to 3/8" hose barb. The barbs are less severe and a simple 9mm X 160mm nylon hose would be a direct fit, no cutting of the fitting or extreme effort required to mate up.

I like ALM products. I appreciate your efforts to monitor feedback and make running changes.
Thanks for your reply
.
 
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