Cadillac CTS-V Forum banner

1 - 20 of 152 Posts

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
14,059 Posts
Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Alright, Gents! The review thread you've been waiting for...

Prologue:

This has been in the works for around ~3 months, as I waited on Geoff of Mantic/USA, who waited on Mantic/Australia, and then we all waited on the new C7-style flywheel to be machined... and then waited on my local shop, just so the install could be delayed further and ultimately... I got the car back today! Since I am the first guy to have the opportunity to put a Mantic clutch in the V2, I was given a nice discount on the purchase price to help offset all the typical stuff that can happen with a 1-off build, including delays, hassle, getting additional measurements during the install and the potential of "shit happens."

Thankfully, aside from some extra labor and the rental car, it went relatively smoothly and no shims were needed with the kit that Mantic provided me - this was largely due to the brand-new C7 flywheel that Geoff @ Mantic/USA engineered to deal with some unexpected C7 fitment issues, and serendipitously benefited we V2 owners! Major credit needs to be given to Geoff for catching this issue, and I believe he got me one of the first 4 flywheels produced to help keep this build on track!

My Expectations: I daily drive my M6, and want a clutch that will hold 650-700 RWHP and still drive similar to the OEM clutch. I have been very pleased with the OEM clutch manners (and its durability at almost 200 RWHP over stock!) since buying the car. I have owned both a M6 C6 coupe and a C6 Z06, and I feel all three vehicles have similar, easy-to-drive manners at their respective power levels. The CTS-V clutch has never seen a drag strip, but I drive the Wagon aggressively on the street and have 50+ zero-110+ pulls along with 6-7 dyno sessions on the factory clutch, so it has served me well.

The vehicle: a 2013 CTS-V M6 Unicorn with cam, pullies, headers and ~650 RHWP that idles smooth at 700 RPM. 40K miles on the stock clutch, 20K miles at 620-650 RWHP and obvious clutch slip for the last ~5k miles.


The parts:
Stock clutch and flywheel: ~65 pounds


Mantic 9000 clutch with C7 flywheel: ~51 pounds (Clutch pack was ~30 pounds, C7 flywheel is 21 pounds)​



(note: the scale was showing an old reading when I took the photo)

The Mantic 9000 Flywheel is - Per Geoff - rated for 1000 ft-lbs of torque at the flywheel, or ~850 RWTQ +/- 40 ft-lbs due to various factors that influence measurements on a chassis dyno. This does not include their tolerance engineered into the unit, but of course this is not going to be advertised or listed in the documentation. NOTE: this assumes you observe a 500 mile break in period of stop-and-go driving to allow the clutch packs to properly mate and wear in. The torque rating increases as the clutch packs break in, so it's imperative to avoid WOT pulls for full capacity.

I was sent a Camaro slave by accident which will not fit inside the bell housing, the CTS-V slave is different and self-bleeding. I expect this will be corrected in "The Kit." Geoff @ Mantic has continued to estimate street price on this kit to be contiguous with their other LS-oriented packages at around $1600-1800 (Clutch, flywheel and slave).

You will want to have a replacement throw-out bearing on hand, part #12557583, which runs around $15 shipped.


Part 1 - Initial driving Impressions:

It's good!

I think the Mantic will be a winner, specifically when compared to the RPS BC2 at almost twice the price. I don't think the Centerforce is going to be much of an alternative based on the majority of V2 users, but some horny internet douche did have good luck with one...

Now we have to allow for the fact that I have a cam, am tuned, and we shaved ~15 pounds of rotating mass off the clutch assembly; not to mention that all of us will have different perspectives on what "good" and "smooth" and so forth really mean. However I think it's fair to say I'm relatively critical of how things should be, and my expectations are likely higher than the Average Bear. I also think it's safe to say that the vast majority of buyers will be guys just like me, guys with cams and pullies and 650+ RWHP!

Initial engagement is actually damn smooth. It feels a LOT like stock, although it will take a few days to get used to the much earlier pedal engagement that Geoff recommended. My stock clutch had a pedal engagement at ~10-20% of pedal movement (meaning I only had to press the pedal in slightly for total release); due to the installation and no spacers, pedal engagement is presently 70-80% of total pedal throw, or perhaps 2-3" from the floor. It's not bad, just different - and Geoff feels this will decrease as the clutch wears in so he wanted plenty of "room" for the first try.

I got zero chatter on the test drive and ride home over 30+ minutes of mixed driving. Yes, I had the windows rolled down and was specifically listening for it... it was factory-quiet! I did get some brief shudder/vibration once that is likely a combination of my tune and trying to re-learn throttle and clutch movements from a dead stop. I would occasionally notice this even on the OEM clutch if something was off with the tune, so I expect to improve on this with some tweaking with HP Tuners (obviously not directly a clutch issue). I never stalled it, and again it behaves very similarly to OEM in my opinion. From a dead stop, I will try to slip the clutch into full engagement over ~1-2 seconds with engine RPM around 1000-1500 RPM and this works very well.

In every gear other than first, it feels exactly like stock, even at low speed such as in a parking lot or going from 1-2 while creeping along at ~10mph. No noise in neutral, at idle or with revs.

Obviously, I plan on observing the break-in period as much as any mortal man can in order to give the Mantic 9000 the most fair and equitable review possible.

Cliff Notes:
Mantic 9000 Clutch for the 2009 - 2015 CTS-V
Rated for 1000 flywheel foot-pounds, or ~850 RWTQ​
~15 pounds lighter than OEM, and lower rotational inertia​
Excellent manners on initial shake-down run​
Deeper pedal engagement than stock, but this is installation-dependent​
Estimated street price of $1600-1800​

Talk to Matt (LT1z) on the forums for pricing!
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
14,059 Posts
Discussion Starter #2 (Edited)
Part 2 - Follow up driving Impressions after full Break-In:

750 mile update (~500 miles of stop-and-go):

Clutch will engage smoothly from 1000-1500 RPM, and likes to be slipped for about a full second for smooth engagement. The friction zone is narrower than OEM, meaning the OEM clutch was a little more forgiving regarding pedal movement. So, if you're not paying attention, it's easy to get some driveline shudder or bucking - but this phenomenon has been steadily improving with the break-in process. I'm hopeful that, as Matt suggested, with a few hundred more miles of abu- I mean, driving, it will be ever more "like stock."

Now, with that said, the clutch is much more docile when cold, and reverse is fine - I think it's just a combination of the higher grip, lighter mass, gearing, my driving style and the heavy pig-Wagon that all contribute to my needing a little more finesse relative to the factory clutch. But hey, we just doubled the torque capacity so if a 1st gear engagement from dead stop takes a wee bit more effort is the only compromise, then that's about as good as it gets.

And, in my opinion, that is the ONLY compromise. In all other gears, under all other conditions, the Mantic is just as good or even better than the factory clutch. But I wanted to make clear that if you are treating the clutch pedal like two drunk virgins in an empty bathroom after Prom, then you'll get a little bucking in 1st gear.

As far as vibrations, chatter or noise - I can't say I've definitely heard any at all, certainly nothing I can repeat. And when I say "no noise," I am saying I can't pick up anything over the normal hum of electronics interference from the dash with the radio off at low speeds. So I'm inclined to say that, in my opinion, this clutch does not have any significant chatter.

Pedal feel is also excellent - pressure and engagement is very, very nice; equivalent to OEM. Only actual engagement has changed as I've mentioned elsewhere, but now that I've had almost 2 weeks to drive it, I have no complaints. I literally just drove back from a 300 mile road trip for a Tough Mudder: 150 miles each way, a 10.5 mile mud run and driving back immediately after while exhausted and the pedal was easy for even a tired old man to use without trouble. I know I could swap slaves for an adjustable to raise engagement height, but it's now quite decent and no longer a concern; Just different than a 40k mile stock unit and something my OCD kind of focused on the first few days after the swap. I think someone unfamilar with the car could get in and find it perfectly normal.

In short, I'm completely happy with the clutch, and feel it's as good as can be for a lighter aftermarket clutch with higher capacity in this platform. I will continue to practice with 1st gear and am 50-50 on a perfectly smooth engagement, if anything I need to use less RPM (~1200 RPM is ideal IMHO) as it's easy to rev too high. Just to be clear, shifting into 2-6 or Reverse is probably more smooth than the OEM clutch.

I plan on beating on it quite a bit once I get back from the Coast in a week or two. :D

------------------------------------------------------
1000 mile update:

The clutch has smoothed out more (and I've gotten more accustomed to the different pedal height); I get the best / smoothest engagement by keeping RPM around 1K and focusing on smooth pedal movement to slip the clutch. If anything, I keep it almost at idle speed for engagement. That works well, but the friction zone is narrower than OEM so it's not as forgiving if you rush it or are not paying attention. WOT shifts and clutch dumps are excellent, so far zero issues with holding the power and my only suggestion to mantic would be to add a few pounds of mass to the flywheel for a more forgiving engagement from a dead stop.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
14,059 Posts
Discussion Starter #4

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
16,350 Posts
Great news!!!! Thanks for doing this Jesse!
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
14,059 Posts
Discussion Starter #7
Great news!!!! Thanks for doing this Jesse!
I should also return my gratitude for your helping us out! Those initial measurements saved us a ton of time and guess-work! I bestow upon you 1,000 internet points for assisting the V Community, and my build specifically.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
16,350 Posts
I should also return my gratitude for your helping us out! Those initial measurements saved us a ton of time and guess-work! I bestow upon you 1,000 internet points for assisting the V Community, and my build specifically.
Maybe I can cash 1000 internet points to my post count and surpass Karch and tri.

Happy to help
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,127 Posts
Listen specifically to the 1200-1800 range. Windows down helps but not required. Low load angles. Tell me if anything strikes your fancy. I wonder if yours makes any noise.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
921 Posts


Interesting. I didn't realize that these things used the big Duramax bearing instead of the smaller bearing that finds it's way into many LS engines.

 

·
Registered
Joined
·
74 Posts
Great news I am ready to buy but really didnt want to foot the bill for an rps. Any word on when these will be available?
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
14,059 Posts
Discussion Starter #12
Listen specifically to the 1200-1800 range. Windows down helps but not required. Low load angles. Tell me if anything strikes your fancy. I wonder if yours makes any noise.
So far, no noises. I specifically rev'd it in the garage to check. It's day 1 though, so I'll be keeping tabs on things and I'll report back as I get more mileage on the clutch.



Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
201 Posts
I'm in to hear your long term results. I'm thinking I might need the triple for when I go nitrous though. If the twin is holding 850 at the wheels that probably won't be enough. Hopefully you continue to have great results and someone takes the leap and tries their triple.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,646 Posts
I had the same experience with the Mantic single in my V1. They make great clutches.
 
Joined
·
1,156 Posts
Awesome review man!!!!!!! Geoff is a very nice guy. Have dealt with im on the c6z triple stuff!!
I like the mantic clutches. Some people say they have a little chatter but i personally haven't sold one or driven one that made any noise. Enjoy it man. Let me know if you need any more go fast goodies!!
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
5,936 Posts
Look mom, I'm famous.

Good to see it finally done. Looking forward to WOT and hard driving impressions.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
14,059 Posts
Discussion Starter #18
Look mom, I'm famous.

Good to see it finally done. Looking forward to WOT and hard driving impressions.
I always imagine you with a sense of humor - and a chubby.



















I'm just not sure which one gets more laughs? :D
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,127 Posts
So far, no noises. I specifically rev'd it in the garage to check. It's day 1 though, so I'll be keeping tabs on things and I'll report back as I get more mileage on the clutch.



Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk
It may not be immediately noticeable but from what I can gather some multidisc units can make noise or amplify existing ones to audible levels whereas previously they were unable to be heard/felt.

Under 1800 and low load usually. More noticeable in 2nd on up. There is zero other noise/shutter/rattle/slip/etc...you'll probably need to be on the road and specifically looking/listening for it to drive in the specific manner to reproduce it...if it even exists.
 
1 - 20 of 152 Posts
Top