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If the lifters are not polished correctly, the lifter (when used
with the tray) can rotate and take out the cam.

If the lifters are not polished correctly when the link bars
are used, the cam will still have a short life / shorter than
normal.

The Johnson 2110 lifters are far better than anything from GM.

Anything more than that and I will get into trouble with someone..lol
 
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Discussion Starter · #63 · (Edited)
Well my saga with the JE pistons continues. I'm not sure whether it's Callies or JE but somewhere they seem to be struggling with getting it correct. My specs haven't changed since the original order which was placed 1 year ago October. Needless to say my patience is wearing thin.

I finally received received the pistons with the pins relocated correctly for the 3.825 stroke that is the good news. The bad news is they forgot the ceramic coating on the crowns and the new pistons weigh 9 grams more than the original set that was used for balancing the rotating assembly.

A couple of questions.

  • What are your thoughts on the value of the ceramic coating for a boosted application. My understanding was it would help with detonation and I was looking to run primarily on pump gas. The pistons are forged 2618 aluminum. I have an email into Callies and JE to see what the turnaround time is to get the pistons they sent coated.
  • If I use the wrist pins that came with the new pistons they're 1 gram heavier than the balance weight for the pistons vs if I use the wrist pins that came with the original set of pistons I'm 9 grams heavier than the balance weight for the pistons. The difference is the original wrist pins have a .2" wall thickness vs the new wrist pins have a .18" wall thickness. Am I correct in assuming being closer to the balance weight is more important than having the thicker wall wrist pins?
 

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Well my saga with the JE pistons continues. I'm not sure whether it's Callies or JE but somewhere they seem to be struggling with getting it correct. My specs haven't changed since the original order which was placed 1 year ago October. Needless to say my patience is wearing thin.

I finally received received the pistons with the pins relocated correctly for the 3.825 stroke that is the good news. The bad news is they forgot the ceramic coating on the crowns and the new pistons weigh 9 grams more than the original set that was used for balancing the rotating assembly.

A couple of questions.

  • What are your thoughts on the value of the ceramic coating for a boosted application. My understanding was it would help with detonation and I was looking to run primarily on pump gas. The pistons are forged 2618 aluminum. I have an email into Callies and JE to see what the turnaround time is to get the pistons they sent coated.
  • If I use the wrist pins that came with the new pistons they're 1 gram heavier than the balance weight for the pistons vs if I use the wrist pins that came with the original set of pistons I'm 9 grams heavier than the balance weight for the pistons. The difference is the original wrist pins have a .2" wall thickness vs the new wrist pins have a .18" wall thickness. Am I correct in assuming being closer to the balance weight is more important than having the thicker wall wrist pins?
Coating the piston is preferable.
I would do it if your not in a rush to put the engine together.

If they state the lighter pin is adequate for your HP Requirements,
I would go with the lighter pin.

If they recommend the thicker / heavier pin, then re balance the engine.

These engine are not known for using lightweight NA-Type
engine internals, as these engines are not spun hard,

So the heavier pin might be better, but these engines
do need to be balanced accurately. The torque forces
associated with even just 1/2 Gram at even 6,000 rpm
become huge.

Cheers
 
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Given how little it costs to balance a rotating assembly (maybe $400?) Versus the cost and time you now have in this motor... I feel like you need to balance it no matter what.

I'm a fan of thicker wrist pins - even if you keep a slightly lower redline as compromise. They're kind of important.

Sent from my SM-G991U1 using Tapatalk
 

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And somehow I thought buying a whole balanced rotating assembly through Callies would be better than piecing it together. There I go thinking again....
Hot Rodding is not all fun and games.

It's a lot of hard work and many things
can go wrong, and commonly do.

But if the car runs fast and is competitive,
it seems to overcome everything..lol

Cheers
 

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Discussion Starter · #68 ·
A quick update on where I'm at on my build. Finally Callies has the correct pistons with the pin located correctly and the ceramic coating and I just sent the crank back to them to rebalance it. The good news is they're trying to make it right.

According to them the pistons are coming in at 11 grams heavier than the initial pistons they sent (i.e. 417 grams vs 406 grams). So if I understand it correctly the bob weight should go up by 22 grams (2 pistons @ 11 grams) for the new balance, is this correct?
 

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Discussion Starter · #69 ·
Something is telling me not to build this engine. If it wasn't for bad luck I wouldn't have any luck at all. I received the crankshaft and am still trying to find out the new bob weight just to verify. They said with the coating the pistons came in 12 grams heavier than original pistons. I assume the bob weight should be 24 grams heavier (2 x 12 grams per journal). Given this my assumption was they would have to add metal to the crank counterweights. I don't see anything on the counterweights.

Is my thinking correct?

Now to top it off, I just received the pistons from Callies and it looks like when they repackaged them, someone decided to add staples to the box, and got into one of the pistons. I don't feel comfortable running it like it is or just filing it down.

Here's a pic.

Wood Tints and shades Gas Circle Auto part
 

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Discussion Starter · #70 · (Edited)
@Rubber Duck

Can someone (hopefully rubber duck) help me understand bob weight for balancing? My understanding is the classic formula is 1/2 reciprocating weight + rotating weight but the shop that align bored my block says sometimes they change the % of reciprocating weight based on the build to create an "overbalance". I think maybe Callies is doing this since I come up with 1806g and they had the bob weight at 1830g when I first received the rotating assembly.

If I do the calcs I come out at 1806g and for the new pistons it would be 10g more due to them being 10g heavier if I'm understanding this correctly.

Here's the calc based on my understanding.

Reciprocating​
Rotating​
Rod
190​
474​
From Callies rod documentation
Piston
406​
They range from 406g - 409g
Pin
132​
Ring set
34​
Support Ring
7​
Pin Keepers
3​
Rod Bearing
43​
Total​
772​
517​
Bob Weight
1806​
(Rotating weight + 1/2 reciprocating weight)x2
 

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@Rubber Duck

Can someone (hopefully rubber duck) help me understand bob weight for balancing? My understanding is the classic formula is 1/2 reciprocating weight + rotating weight but the shop that align bored my block says sometimes they change the % of reciprocating weight based on the build to create an "overbalance". I think maybe Callies is doing this since I come up with 1806g and they had the bob weight at 1830g when I first received the rotating assembly.

If I do the calcs I come out at 1806g and for the new pistons it would be 10g more due to them being 10g heavier if I'm understanding this correctly.

Here's the calc based on my understanding.

Reciprocating​
Rotating​
Rod
190​
474​
From Callies rod documentation
Piston
406​
They range from 406g - 409g
Pin
132​
Ring set
34​
Support Ring
7​
Pin Keepers
3​
Rod Bearing
43​
Total​
772​
517​
Bob Weight
1806​
(Rotating weight + 1/2 reciprocating weight)x2
Sorry to hear about all of your bad luck. . . .Bummer..:(
And sorry again, as I never did engine balancing myself. .:(:(

--------------------------------------------------

We had everything we needed in our machine shop to produce
remanufactured engines, including our own crankshaft grinder,
as we usually rebuilt 8 - 13 engines a day.

Whereas we required two boring bars, three large engine
cleaning tanks, three valve refacing centers etc., we never
purchased an engine balancer, as we did not require one
for the Production Engine Rebuilding, or (PER) side of
the business.

Most of our performance engine work surrounded refreshing,
and / or upgrading race engines for our customers. We only
built around three new Performance Engines a month, and
never found it necessary for us to purchase an engine balancer.

A friend of ours, about 30-Minutes from our shop decided to
purchase one, as he was really into lightening internal engine
components for his customers. His customers were not drag
racing oriented, and ran low powered engines compared to
the drag engines we produced. So he was really into lightening
the engine reciprocating mass, and everything else..lol

He did a very good job for us, and it also helped him pay for his..lol

I am thinking that there must be a YouTube Video on this though, that might help you.

Good Luck!
 

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Discussion Starter · #72 ·
Sorry to hear about all of your bad luck. . . .Bummer..:(
And sorry again, as I never did engine balancing myself. .:(:(
Thanks for the advice. It looks like my crankshaft balance will be ok with the new pistons

For inquiring minds. It looks like I need to add oil also into the rotating calc. Also, according to Steve Morris, it looks like an "underbalanced" engine revs quicker and an "overbalanced" engine maintains high RPMs better.

Here's a couple of videos from Steve Morris Engines that helped me understand the process.

 

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LOL... You can find anything on the net... For what it is worth, I've balanced a few hundred assemblies. I hate to disagree with the duck, but I would not get bent over 0.5 gram. However, there is no reason for your pistons to vary 3 grams. I have never under balanced a shaft, but have over balanced up to 3%. And know of it being done up to 5%.

The only problem I see with your calculations is that you left out oil consideration. I assume you figured out that your difference in piston weight only counts once. Reciprocating once plus 2X rotating. If your piston is 417g, then I get a bob of 1827g.
 

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LOL... You can find anything on the net... For what it is worth, I've balanced a few hundred assemblies. I hate to disagree with the duck, but I would not get bent over 0.5 gram. However, there is no reason for your pistons to vary 3 grams. I have never under balanced a shaft, but have over balanced up to 3%. And know of it being done up to 5%.

The only problem I see with your calculations is that you left out oil consideration. I assume you figured out that your difference in piston weight only counts once. Reciprocating once plus 2X rotating. If your piston is 417g, then I get a bob of 1827g.
And where did I state that I would get bent over 0.5 gram??

Also, many of us were overbalancing engines as far back as the 1960's for drag applications, whereby the engine worked within a narrow high engine rpm band.

And others, who were building engines for automotive racing, where the car might need to slow down for a corner, and then accelerate hard out of the corner, would lighten the internal components of the engine, and underbalance the engine.
 
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And where did I state that I would get bent over 0.5 gram??
Nowhere. I never said you "stated" it. It was merely how I interpreted:

So the heavier pin might be better, but these engines
do need to be balanced accurately. The torque forces
associated with even just 1/2 Gram at even 6,000 rpm
become huge.
If I have sorely mischaracterized your statement, my apology.

Also, many of us were overbalancing engines as far back as the 1960's for drag applications, whereby the engine worked within a narrow high engine rpm band.

And others, who were building engines for automotive racing, where the car might need to slow down for a corner, and then accelerate hard out of the corner, would lighten the internal components of the engine, and underbalance the engine.
OK. I was only speaking from "my" limited experience. I have not balanced a crank in over 20 years. However, I did balance a couple of hundred in the 4 full-time and 7 part-time years I worked at an automotive machine shop. I only posted in an effort to affirm the OP's situation. I assume that those that find it crap, or at the very least not helpful, would just disregard.
 

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Nowhere. I never said you "stated" it. It was merely how I interpreted:



If I have sorely mischaracterized your statement, my apology.



OK. I was only speaking from "my" limited experience. I have not balanced a crank in over 20 years. However, I did balance a couple of hundred in the 4 full-time and 7 part-time years I worked at an automotive machine shop. I only posted in an effort to affirm the OP's situation. I assume that those that find it crap, or at the very least not helpful, would just disregard.
Apology accepted. . . No Big Deal..;)

Regarding the highlighted text above:
Just a comment from me to you. . . .

This is supposed to be a technical forum.
Therefore, all of us that post technical information, should assume that
anyone reading our post(s) will take that post as an accurate post.

How would anyone that knows less than you do, know to disregard any post made by you?
So, if the post is not technically worthy, then simply do not post it..lol

Cheers,
RD
 
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Apology accepted. . . No Big Deal..;)

Regarding the highlighted text above:
Just a comment from me to you. . . .

This is supposed to be a technical forum.
Therefore, all of us that post technical information, should assume that
anyone reading our post(s) will take that post as an accurate post.

How would anyone that knows less than you do, know to disregard any post made by you?
So, if the post is not technically worthy, then simply do not post it..lol

Cheers,
RD
lol... It would be great if these forums worked that way. Especially in my field of expertise, but that has not been my experience. I see plenty of folks, with much less experience and knowledge than yourself, disregard and/or question your advice. I also see plenty of folks posting speculation at best...
 

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lol... It would be great if these forums worked that way. Especially in my field of expertise, but that has not been my experience. I see plenty of folks, with much less experience and knowledge than yourself, disregard and/or question your advice. I also see plenty of folks posting speculation at best...
No argument from me regarding the above.
Knowledge gains in this field, only will come from 'Hands On Experience'.

But all one can do who has the experience, is to hand the 'Correct' information out.
Then, it is up to the reader to determine which way they desire to go..lol

Cheers
 
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Discussion Starter · #79 · (Edited)
LOL... You can find anything on the net...
That's true, I saw one out there with someone was using wooden v blocks balancing a crank.... but I figured Steve Morris knew a thing or two about cranks and his video was pretty good at explaining it with an example. The piston and rod he was using looked a lot like the John Force piston/rod clock I have at home (i.e. piston coating, wall thickness, and the aluminum rod).

he only problem I see with your calculations is that you left out oil consideration. I assume you figured out that your difference in piston weight only counts once. Reciprocating once plus 2X rotating. If your piston is 417g, then I get a bob of 1827g.
I caught that after watching the Steve Morris videos. I revised my excel sheet and made sure it had the same result as his machine was showing at 50%, 49%, and at 51%. I can send the sheet if someone wants it for their own calculations. The calculator on performanceenginetech.com comes up with the same calc but doesn't let you calc for over or under balance. Speed-talk.com had a whole string with engine builders going back and forth on the merits of balance vs overbalance vs underbalance and bearing wear.

Callies is saying the current balance bob weight is 1840g so it equates to 51.25% overbalance. I'm not sure how they got from the original 1830g to 1840g for the rebalance nor how they came up with that number. If everything would have been correct out of the box I still would have been at a 51.25% over balance since the pistons were 10g lighter and the bob weight was 10g lighter. I have a question into them asking about that.

Here's what I have now
Reciprocating​
Rotating​
Comment​
Rod
190​
474​
From rod documentation​
Rod Bearing
43​
New Piston
416​
Pin
132​
Ring set
34​
Support Ring
7​
Pin Keepers
3​
Total​
782​
517​
Oil
5​
Bob Weight​
782​
1039​
Bob Weight Total
1821​
Reciprocating %
50.0%​
Rods/Journal
2​
 

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That's true, I saw one out there with someone was using wooden v blocks balancing a crank.... but I figured Steve Morris knew a thing or two about cranks and his video was pretty good at explaining it with an example. The piston and rod he was using looked a lot like the John Force piston/rod clock I have at home (i.e. piston coating, wall thickness, and the aluminum rod).
I meant that as a good thing in this instance. I was going to respond to your post Thursday before you posted the vid link, but I was beat...

Speed-talk.com had a whole string with engine builders going back and forth on the merits of balance vs overbalance vs underbalance and bearing wear.
There is a lot to consider running an efficient dry sump and/or vac pump, dynamic loads, harmonics, kinetic friction, etc... In all the cases where I was required to over balance, it had everything to do with extending the life of the main bearings.
 
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