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Discussion Starter #1
Gentlemen:

So after almost a year and a half the mod bug has once again come around a bit me hard!

My original plan for the winter months was to just add a more aggressive cam more appropriate for a 416 and change my pulley combo on the Magnuson Heartbeat from 2.65/8.6 to 2.65/9.1.

I then entertained adding some kick ass CNC heads to the build as well. At this point I was ready to commit and begin ordering parts, but then Greg Kong released his new 2650 blowers and the rest is history!

I then did a bit of research, combed through countless threads on multiple sites and communicated directly with Greg.

At this point I was convinced that this was the best way forward because of the potential of this new blower. So, after conversing with my shop and procuring a cool buyer from our CTS-V community for my Heartbeat to offset the cost of 2650, I was ready to commit to this build.

Now due to my budget for this build I decided I had to forgo the cam and heads and just add this new blower along with a DMS ZL1 lid and a DDP 5 inch intake.

So my build is slated to begin later this month or early January and I was am curious what you all think my gains will be with these two changes?

I’m unsure what pulley combo we will settle on as a lot is dependent on the limits of my engine specs and stock transmission. As a result they will in all likelihood start off with a 3.0/8.6 combo and go a little smaller on the upper from there on based on what my set up can safely handle.

Here is my engine specs: • LME forged 416 ci and 9:5:1cr • ARP kit • Milled stock LSA heads • 223/235 blower cam, IWIS timing chain, melling oil pump, LS2 dampener, trunion upgrade, LS9 head gaskets, LS7 lifters, ARP head stud kit and NGK BR7 spark plugs
Additionally: | Dual underhood reservoir | NW 102mm TB | ARH 1 7/8 headers | DSX | ID 1300 Injectors | Aux. Sec. pump | Varimax | Active Interchiller | E. Cutouts |

My old set up with the Maggie and NEP 4.5 intake put down just 658whp/750wtq on a conservative 93 tune and 770whp/807wtq on e74. (Dynojet)

What do you all think I might gain and/or potentially put down with just the Kong 2650 and DDP 5 inch intake being added in place of the Maggie and NEP 4.5?
 

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Awesome - I'm really looking forward to seeing some legit responses (and not just Facebook brag threads)!

I'll guess 15% over on 93, assuming similar ambient due to the larger rotor packs (and similar overdrive ratios), keeping in mind your Maggie as a baseline and the heads being a limiting factor.

So 750 / 830 ish.

Are you using the Kong intercooler or the ZL1 lid? Someone should send me one...

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
 

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Did Kong tell you what the limitations of the new 2650 are? HP limits?

I’d guess 850 on E, but that might be kinda hard on the stock heads. Very interested to see what you end up with!
 

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Roots Blowers don't like to hold a high pressure ratio.

The larger engine (416 cid) will inhale more air / CFM
per engine revolution, than will an LSA 376 cid engine.

But the limitation of the 416 is that it uses the same bore
size and valve size as does the 376. This causes the
416 to be InFlow restricted, which will generate the need
for a blower to hold a high pressure ratio than if you
removed those restrictions caused by your heads, etc.

Being InFlow restricted, the 416 will show an increase in
Torque at low engine rpm's, but not necessarily the same
increase in HP at high rpm's, if much at all. . . Depending?

So the only way to answer your question would be to know
'Exactly' what 'Pressure Ratio' the blower 'Can' hold, along
with how much air it is flowing at a given RPM and it's
efficiency at that RPM.

As I recall, the video posted by RPM (I believe) presented
some data that looked promising for this blower to help overcome
the largest problem we have with these roots blowers on
our engine platform.

That is they are small blowers, which therefore must be twisted
to very high rpm's, while being limited via the size of the TB.

But that was their blower (a single data input so far) and they used
an oxygenated fuel along with spraying meth at the inlet.

Big Differences!

Happy Holidays
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Awesome - I'm really looking forward to seeing some legit responses (and not just Facebook brag threads)!

I'll guess 15% over on 93, assuming similar ambient due to the larger rotor packs (and similar overdrive ratios), keeping in mind your Maggie as a baseline and the heads being a limiting factor.

So 750 / 830 ish.

Are you using the Kong intercooler or the ZL1 lid? Someone should send me one...

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
Right now I am planning to just run use the ZL1 lid. I really want kong’s Dual pass intercooler, but I’m not sure when it will finally be released. When I inquired about the availability of this intercooler, Greg told me that the ZL1 lid was sufficient for 1000whp. I assume this was determined during their testing of the V in that RPM video. If the dual pass intercooler is released over the next few weeks and not significantly more than the ZL1 then I will try to get it for my build.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Did Kong tell you what the limitations of the new 2650 are? HP limits?

I’d guess 850 on E, but that might be kinda hard on the stock heads. Very interested to see what you end up with!
Kong didn’t tell me what the limitations are for the blower, but based on his testing with the CTS-V and a ZR1 with the LS9 2650, I would say 1100-1150whp easily and 1200-1300whp on full send.This assuming the engine parts and specs are up to the tasks. The CTS-V in RPM video was only running a 3.0/9.1 pulley combo and made like 1003whp. So there Is plenty of room to make more power. I think this capability of this blower may not been seen for a while as the power will probably exceed what most builds can safely handle without breaking stuff.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Roots Blowers don't like to hold a high pressure ratio.

The larger engine (416 cid) will inhale more air / CFM
per engine revolution, than will an LSA 376 cid engine.

But the limitation of the 416 is that it uses the same bore
size and valve size as does the 376. This causes the
416 to be InFlow restricted, which will generate the need
for a blower to hold a high pressure ratio than if you
removed those restrictions caused by your heads, etc.

Being InFlow restricted, the 416 will show an increase in
Torque at low engine rpm's, but not necessarily the same
increase in HP at high rpm's if much at all. . . Depending?

So the only way to answer your question would be to know
'Exactly' what 'Pressure Ratio' the blower 'Can' hold, along
with how much air it is flowing at a given RPM and it's
efficiency at that RPM.

As I recall, the video posted by RPM (I believe) presented
some data that looked promising for this blower to help overcome
the largest problem we have with these roots blowers on
our engine platform.

That is they are small blowers, which therefore must be twisted
to very high rpm's, while being limited via the size of the TB.

But that was their blower (a single data input so far) and they used
an oxygenated fuel along with spraying meth at the inlet.

Big Differences!

Happy Holidays
Roots Blowers don't like to hold a high pressure ratio.

The larger engine (416 cid) will inhale more air / CFM
per engine revolution, than will an LSA 376 cid engine.

But the limitation of the 416 is that it uses the same bore
size and valve size as does the 376. This causes the
416 to be InFlow restricted, which will generate the need
for a blower to hold a high pressure ratio than if you
removed those restrictions caused by your heads, etc.

Being InFlow restricted, the 416 will show an increase in
Torque at low engine rpm's, but not necessarily the same
increase in HP at high rpm's if much at all. . . Depending?

So the only way to answer your question would be to know
'Exactly' what 'Pressure Ratio' the blower 'Can' hold, along
with how much air it is flowing at a given RPM and it's
efficiency at that RPM.

As I recall, the video posted by RPM (I believe) presented
some data that looked promising for this blower to help overcome
the largest problem we have with these roots blowers on
our engine platform.

That is they are small blowers, which therefore must be twisted
to very high rpm's, while being limited via the size of the TB.

But that was their blower (a single data input so far) and they used
an oxygenated fuel along with spraying meth at the inlet.

Big Differences!

Happy Holidays
Thanks Duck! That all makes sense and now I have some questions to ponder and consider here. I’m not expecting my number to be anything close to that CTS-V from that RPM video, but I’m hoping for a healthy bump in power.
 

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You really should do anything and everything you can to get more airflow from your cylinder heads.

The more air you try to force through a given port, the more heat you gain, period.

Even if you’re spraying meth and using a chiller, it’s just not efficient.

Best of luck.

PS, I am not trying to sell you anything, at all, I’ve got too much I’m dealing with, I just don’t like seeing people not make informed decisions.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

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Discussion Starter #10
You really should do anything and everything you can to get more airflow from your cylinder heads.

The more air you try to force through a given port, the more heat you gain, period.

Even if you’re spraying meth and using a chiller, it’s just not efficient.

Best of luck.

PS, I am not trying to sell you anything, at all, I’ve got too much I’m dealing with, I just don’t like seeing people not make informed decisions.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Hey Karch, no offense taken! Your just trying to make sure that I am well informed and have realistic expectations. To be perfectly honest getting the Kong 2650 was not really a serious consideration until I started getting feelers on my Heartbeat unit. With a big junk of my cost eliminated I saw an opportunity to get this blower within my budget and figured it was worth the gamble.

I will have to address the heads down the line because I don’t want to spend another 3-4K on a good set of heads with installation cost. My choices were either H/C or Kong 2650. I chose the latter and may end up with egg on my face, but I figured the potential gains were worth the gamble.
 

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I am curious what kind of gains you see just swapping the blower.

I would guess you aren’t going to see crazy numbers but it should make more power everywhere than the 2300


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

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Discussion Starter #12
I am curious what kind of gains you see just swapping the blower.

I would guess you aren’t going to see crazy numbers but it should make more power everywhere than the 2300


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I pretty much agree. I’m not expecting crazy gains as I don’t have the right heads/cam combo to really take advantage of what this blower can do, but I honestly would be disappointed if I don’t at least see a conservative 10% improvement throughout the RPM range.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
I’m looking forward to sharing my results with the community! My setup will be a case study for how far you can push stock heads with PD blowers.
 

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Looking forward to seeing the Kong 2650s hit the real world. We only have the RPM commercial to go on at this point. I really hope they are reliable and perform as billed because I’m considering using it on my build vs porting the stock LSA. Keep your updates coming.


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Discussion Starter #18
That cam is too small for a 1900 on a 416 let alone a 2650. That will be the limiting factor.
Just out of curiosity would you 2.5 cam work well with this application and stock stall?
 

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Just out of curiosity would you 2.5 cam work well with this application and stock stall?
Matt wouldn’t recommend it. It is spec’d for a 376. Your motor is significantly larger and would require a different cam, to at least optimize everything. Then again, you need to address your heads. Thing is gonna be BEGGING for more air! Even if you don’t optimize it right now, it will still be a beast.
 
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