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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Is there any consensus on the best lid configuration for the 2650?

I have a new ZL1 lid and need to get the brick reinforced so I was looking around and found a Kong Lid for a slightly reduced price but is it worth the price? I figured another alternative is to sell the ZL1 brick and get a C&R brick. It looks like there's some gain with a lid spacer but then there's clearance issues with that. For the price of the Kong lid another option is going down the chiller route similar to the dodge demon

I was hoping someone who's tried various combinations would chime in.
 

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DSX has a lid out now that blends the ZL1 and V lids together. It uses a standard or C&R V brick. I’d be more tempted to try it than the Kong lid.

I’m just not a fan of the reduced airflow to 7 and 8 cylinders on the Kong and ZL1 lids.


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It's like the nice girl in school who let the Football team run a train on her in the locker room, and you're the dork who wants to ask her to prom... you'd think your Bros would drop a hint so you know what your getting into, but at the end of the night you still had fun. :D

So if I had the chance to do it again, I'd likely stick with the ZL1 lid and c&r brick (or the Dsteck lid as mentioned). No one was nice enough to mention that when I asked last year, but apparently this is kind of a known thing behind the scenes to V-orientated shops. Kong was also purposefully vague when I asked about the lid, so the whole process has left me with a sour taste for sure.

I crushed my OEM brick so I upgraded to the Kong - so far the only real concern is the IAT2 reads 30+ degrees high all the time because of the location over the #7 cylinder.

That doesn't mean the IAT2s are actually high - the sensor heat soaks quickly skewing the validity and timing control. That can be tuned for somewhat FWIW, but I have plans to also run a spacer and relocate the Temp sensor, if that works I'll be happy.

I believe the dual pass intercooler really does work, as the IAT2 actually drops initially on a pull (fresh air hits the sensor) then rises at half the rate I saw with a ZL1 lid.

So if it were JUST the lid, it wouldn't be a huge deal. The problem is you have to upgrade fuel rails at a minimum for clearance and the cost creeps up quite a bit. Now likely a spacer to relocate the Temp sensor...

There are a few aftermarket/ billet ZL1 lid options that are also interesting- some already come with the C&R brick also. So yeah, would I trade the Kong for a ZL1 lid now? Probably - and I'd grab the Dsteck lid as an interesting alternative.

But starting from scratch? Kong has priced himself out of the market.

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It's like the nice girl in school who let the Football team run a train on her in the locker room, and you're the dork who wants to ask her to prom... you'd think your Bros would drop a hint so you know what your getting into, but at the end of the night you still had fun. :D

So if I had the chance to do it again, I'd likely stick with the ZL1 lid and c&r brick (or the Dsteck lid as mentioned). No one was nice enough to mention that when I asked last year, but apparently this is kind of a known thing behind the scenes to V-orientated shops. Kong was also purposefully vague when I asked about the lid, so the whole process has left me with a sour taste for sure.

I crushed my OEM brick so I upgraded to the Kong - so far the only real concern is the IAT2 reads 30+ degrees high all the time because of the location over the #7 cylinder.

That doesn't mean the IAT2s are actually high - the sensor heat soaks quickly skewing the validity and timing control. That can be tuned for somewhat FWIW, but I have plans to also run a spacer and relocate the Temp sensor, if that works I'll be happy.

I believe the dual pass intercooler really does work, as the IAT2 actually drops initially on a pull (fresh air hits the sensor) then rises at half the rate I saw with a ZL1 lid.

So if it were JUST the lid, it wouldn't be a huge deal. The problem is you have to upgrade fuel rails at a minimum for clearance and the cost creeps up quite a bit. Now likely a spacer to relocate the Temp sensor...

There are a few aftermarket/ billet ZL1 lid options that are also interesting- some already come with the C&R brick also. So yeah, would I trade the Kong for a ZL1 lid now? Probably - and I'd grab the Dsteck lid as an interesting alternative.

But starting from scratch? Kong has priced himself out of the market.

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Off topic but what was your preferred routing of hoses with the ZL1 and bmr tank? I know you ran it both ways. I’m just a weekend street guy , no track use. Using a varimax and all 12an hoses. Also noticed you left the factory t in place, did you bleed the system through there or the tank? Did you leave the overflow? Thanks
 

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I always liked the idea of the chiller. I know there are a lot of mixed feelings about them but it does seem when they work, they work well.

If you go the chiller route then you could probably just stick to the stock V or ZL1 lid with normal reinforced brick.
 
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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
It's like the nice girl in school who let the Football team run a train on her in the locker room, and you're the dork who wants to ask her to prom... you'd think your Bros would drop a hint so you know what your getting into, but at the end of the night you still had fun.

I crushed my OEM brick so I upgraded to the Kong...
"I don't care who you are, that's funny right there"

Was it a ZL1 or CTS V brick? I assume it was reinforced, so at what PSI did it crush?
 

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Random bring up some valid points about the Kong lid. I very much disliked that the IAT2 sensor location giving readings 25 + degrees higher especially with my interchiller, but after a year I've learned to accept it.

I got my lid for about 60% off his final listing price since Greg used my car as a test mill for the lid in early 2020.

Overall, I have no complaints about the lid except for the sensor location.

Also as said, I would look into the new DSX unit as that look like a fine piece as well.

Lastly, if you plan to really push the blower than there should be no reason to be mess around with any ZL1 lid regardless of configuration with these similarly priced alternatives.

Here are the results:
Kong 2650 with the new dual pass lid.
Some details
2.75 upper / 8.6 lower
Small cam (22psi) 850ish rwhp
Over 20rwhp gain compared to brand new ZL1 lid.
Lower IATs
Font Line Rectangle Parallel Electricity

Before dyno run

Electricity Font Line Rectangle Slope

After dyno run
 

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Random bring up some valid points about the Kong lid. I very much disliked that the IAT2 sensor location giving readings 25 + degrees higher especially with my interchiller, but after a year I've learned to accept it.

I got my lid for about 60% off his final listing price since Greg used my car as a test mill for the lid in early 2020.

Overall, I have no complaints about the lid except for the sensor location.

Also as said, I would look into the new DSX unit as that look like a fine piece as well.

Lastly, if you plan to really push the blower than there should be no reason to be mess around with any ZL1 lid regardless of configuration with these similarly priced alternatives.

Here are the results:
Kong 2650 with the new dual pass lid.
Some details
2.75 upper / 8.6 lower
Small cam (22psi) 850ish rwhp
Over 20rwhp gain compared to brand new ZL1 lid.
Lower IATs
View attachment 152700
Before dyno run

View attachment 152701
After dyno run
I didn't dyno - but I don't trust the advertising of "20 rwhp gain" as stated.

I know I lost a third of a pound of boost (over the crushed OEM brick) at 18psi - and that pressure loss is likely due to the dual pass brick being less efficient.

I'd say I do get lower IAT2s at the end of the run relative to the ZL1 setup, but no way in hell is the Kong lid starting at the same IAT2 unless... shenanigans!

And honestly I'm okay with that even still, if the brick holds up.

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I didn't dyno - but I don't trust the advertising of "20 rwhp gain" as stated.

I know I lost a third of a pound of boost (over the crushed OEM brick) at 18psi - and that pressure loss is likely due to the dual pass brick being less efficient.

I'd say I do get lower IAT2s at the end of the run relative to the ZL1 setup, but no way in hell is the Kong lid starting at the same IAT2 unless... shenanigans!

And honestly I'm okay with that even still, if the brick holds up.

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I know you've said you lost a bit of boost pressure, how does your MAF Hz or g/cyl compare to the previous setup?
 

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I know you've said you lost a bit of boost pressure, how does your MAF Hz or g/cyl compare to the previous setup?
It's slightly lower also.

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FYI, the c&r bricks for both the zl1 and ctsv lids are the same size. And they are the same size as a stock ctsv brick. So the c&r zl1 brick is bigger than a stock zl1 brick. It protrudes into the orange gasket which helps it seal better. Id pair it with a lid spacer.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Thanks everyone for the input. I passed on the Kong Lid and think for now I'll stick with the ZL1 lid I have and have the brick reinforced. If I have problems later I'll get the C&R brick.

Any recommendations on where to get the brick reinforced?
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
I know I lost a third of a pound of boost (over the crushed OEM brick) at 18psi - and that pressure loss is likely due to the dual pass brick being less efficient.
So are you saying the brick crushed at 18psi of boost? Was it a reinforced ZL1 brick?
 

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So are you saying the brick crushed at 18psi of boost? Was it a reinforced ZL1 brick?
Yes and yes

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Yes and yes

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To be clear, you saw deformation on the fin side facing the rotors correct? There is no way to reinforce that area without a brick redesign which is where C&R and the Kong lid come in.


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To be clear, you saw deformation on the fin side facing the rotors correct? There is no way to reinforce that area without a brick redesign which is where C&R and the Kong lid come in.


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Yes. It was a several year old brick, so heat cycling could have played a part. It was reinforced but I don't recall by whom. Basically the first 1-2mm of fins were crushed or ripped off (and embedded further into the brick) around the plenum opening above the rotors. It never leaked, just the fins deforming and further blocking airflow. I ran 18-19psi depending on the weather.
 

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I just wanted to clarify since most people read crushed brick to mean the end tank collapsed.


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My reinforced zl1 brick lasted 1.5 seasons and began to leak from the fins/end tank. My car sees 21psi, I now have the c&r brick. I wouldn't trust the zl1 bricks with higher boost without checking somewhat frequently.
 

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I loss my first motor due to a failed brick collapsing and sending particles through my engine damaging a ring land. Although it was a CTS V and not a ZL1 lid, I rather take all necessary precautions with a new built motor. The Kong Lid was designed to be paired with the Kong 2650, so it is the same basic design Edelbrock uses on all of their 2650 units from the Gen 3 CTS-V and the Mustang GT. I know the Kong 2650 was designed to allow the stock lid to fit, but the ZL1 lid was not engineered to run 20 pounds + boost. I know these units are reinforced and they may hold up fine, but they won't be able to match the cooling and recovery of a engineered Edlebrock lid.

Gen 3 CTS-V
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