Pull the valve covers and look for a broken spring.
Help running down a potential lifter tick.
'10 sedan, manual, 92k miles. 100% stock. Per previous owners records, cam and lifters were replaced under warranty at 40k. There's a distinct tick on driver's side that I'd definitely diagnose on a friend's car as a lifter tick if he asked.
My previous "fun" car was a '12 Corvette that ate a lifter, resulting in much fun, labor and $$$. What's proper diagnostic path to save this motor from a similar fate. Or at least try to save my budget from similar fate.
Also, oil was changed about 1k miles before my purchase of the car, and I've not put more than 2k on it, but changed today as a preventative measure and I'd swear the ticking was quieter after oil change. Though still present.
Any advice?
My previous "fun" car was a '12 Corvette that ate a lifter, resulting in much fun, labor and $$$. What's proper diagnostic path to save this motor from a similar fate. Or at least try to save my budget from similar fate.
Also, oil was changed about 1k miles before my purchase of the car, and I've not put more than 2k on it, but changed today as a preventative measure and I'd swear the ticking was quieter after oil change. Though still present.
Any advice?
1 - 12 of 12 Posts
Disclaimer: I'm a shadetree mechanic at best.
I suggest pulling the valve covers and checking pushrods for proper preload. That could tell you the "what", but it may not tell you the "why".
The "why"
Like Heavymetals says, broken spring. Possibly a rocker bolt backed out.
If it's a collapsed lifter, swap it with another and see if the noise follows. If it does, a new lifter solves it.
If it ends up being oil pressure, then why is it only that particular passage? Teardown and rebuild is the only solution that I can think of.
I suggest pulling the valve covers and checking pushrods for proper preload. That could tell you the "what", but it may not tell you the "why".
The "why"
Like Heavymetals says, broken spring. Possibly a rocker bolt backed out.
If it's a collapsed lifter, swap it with another and see if the noise follows. If it does, a new lifter solves it.
If it ends up being oil pressure, then why is it only that particular passage? Teardown and rebuild is the only solution that I can think of.
Poor finishes on both the camshaft lobe, as well as the wheel of the lifter, cause the lifter to rotate in the lifter bore / nest, particularly when valve spring pressures are increased.
Needless to say, a camshafts life will be greatly shortened, once the lifter wheel, is it an angle to the camshaft lobe.
Those plastic trays, are not ideal!
This is where lifters which have tiebars linking them together, should become of interest to people, particularly those who have increased their valve spring pressures.
Needless to say, a camshafts life will be greatly shortened, once the lifter wheel, is it an angle to the camshaft lobe.
Those plastic trays, are not ideal!
This is where lifters which have tiebars linking them together, should become of interest to people, particularly those who have increased their valve spring pressures.
The LS3 from the Corvette's post mortem diagnosis was indeed that lifter had probably rotated in it's bore. That was stock cam (at that point) and so is this. So is it just luck of the draw on which LS's are going to crunch a lifter?
Yes.The LS3 from the Corvette's post mortem diagnosis was indeed that lifter had probably rotated in it's bore. That was stock cam (at that point) and so is this. So is it just luck of the draw on which LS's are going to crunch a lifter?
It's common enough that people think of it as a 'known issue' but in reality, it's probably not statistically significant given the millions of LS-es out there and the billions of miles driven without lifter issues.
I recently pulled a set from a 140k-mile LSA that appear to be in perfect condition. They might be good for a bunch more miles... but I know that there's no way that I would reuse them!
Go back a few years, when a certain popular camshaft grinding companyYes.
It's common enough that people think of it as a 'known issue' but in reality, it's probably not statistically significant given the millions of LS-es out there and the billions of miles driven without lifter issues.
I recently pulled a set from a 140k-mile LSA that appear to be in perfect condition. They might be good for a bunch more miles... but I know that there's no way that I would reuse them!
was selling their cams using the cheap 5160 cast iron cam cores.
Now, imagine what happens when you don't use a small wheel,
one that rotates very, very slowly, which is allowed to 'Spark Out'
too generate a micro finish.
Instead, the camshafts were finished with 'Too Large A Wheel'
and the finish is more like a fine sand paper.
Couple the above with cheap lifters, which have not been finished correctly.
This issue, being so prevalent, was how another 'High-Perf' lifter company gained such popularity.
It marketed their lifters as being 'Micro Polished'.
Couple their lifters with any camshaft being made from 8620 Tool Steel,
and one which is finish ground on a small CNC Wheel, and where it
is allowed to 'Spark Out' slowly, and you have a reliable 'System'.
Now, the above is History!
I believe that History is our best learning tool, and we should not disregard it. . .
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You wrote:
"It's common enough that people think of it as a 'known issue' but in reality, it's probably not statistically significant given the millions of LS-es out there and the billions of miles driven without lifter issues."
Stock LS Engines, are 'Not Modified Engines'
Once you begin to stack more spring pressure on,
you better have a cam and lifter package, which has the correct finish.
-to further stop friction-
You better be sure that the lifter bores / nests are
90° to the blocks deck, and the blocks deck is 90° to
the crankshaft journals, which have been line-honed.
Please also remember:
The difference between IMEP and BMEP, is partially due to the loss of FMEP.
So in a race engine, we desire to reduce the frictional losses associated with FMEP.
Help me understand though: where's the root cause in a stock LS lifter/cam failure? Like I say, this car has a factory warrantied cam and lifters installed at 40k miles and is clicking and ticking like it might need something again. My Corvette didn't get past 80k and one of my best friends 6.2 Suburban ate a lifter at 35k.
I know these are anecdotal, and outliers (acknowledging Mr. Surly's correct assertion that there are a lot of them on the road, covering a lot of trouble free miles). I still would like to understand the failure point.
Also, deviated a bit from my original intention/question. Is there a way to validate the need for new lifters (and thus a cam and head work...Because in for a penny...)?
Thanks!
I know these are anecdotal, and outliers (acknowledging Mr. Surly's correct assertion that there are a lot of them on the road, covering a lot of trouble free miles). I still would like to understand the failure point.
Also, deviated a bit from my original intention/question. Is there a way to validate the need for new lifters (and thus a cam and head work...Because in for a penny...)?
Thanks!
First, proving the need for lifters (or diagnosing the noise) starts with visual inspection under the valve covers to search for clues you can see and test; spring/rocker/trunnion,pivot,bolt issues and evident lash issues. If ALL of those check out (and if external possibilities are eliminated especially exhaust leaks) and no cause is found by that point, the only what to verify the lifters’ condition is to pull the heads.Help me understand though: where's the root cause in a stock LS lifter/cam failure? Like I say, this car has a factory warrantied cam and lifters installed at 40k miles and is clicking and ticking like it might need something again. My Corvette didn't get past 80k and one of my best friends 6.2 Suburban ate a lifter at 35k.
I know these are anecdotal, and outliers (acknowledging Mr. Surly's correct assertion that there are a lot of them on the road, covering a lot of trouble free miles). I still would like to understand the failure point.
Also, deviated a bit from my original intention/question. Is there a way to validate the need for new lifters (and thus a cam and head work...Because in for a penny...)?
Thanks!
Truthfully, you’re pretty much going to have to pull the heads… unless the issue is a simple broken spring or loose rocker.
Of course the WYIT rule applies.
Welcome… to the modness.
As for the root cause? I don’t know.
Without meaning to sound short or rude. . .Help me understand though: where's the root cause in a stock LS lifter/cam failure? Like I say, this car has a factory warrantied cam and lifters installed at 40k miles and is clicking and ticking like it might need something again. My Corvette didn't get past 80k and one of my best friends 6.2 Suburban ate a lifter at 35k.
I know these are anecdotal, and outliers (acknowledging Mr. Surly's correct assertion that there are a lot of them on the road, covering a lot of trouble free miles). I still would like to understand the failure point.
Also, deviated a bit from my original intention/question. Is there a way to validate the need for new lifters (and thus a cam and head work...Because in for a penny...)?
Thanks!
You'all..lol_can spend as much time as You'all desire debating how
many stock engines lose lifters due to the lifter rotating.
My comments are simply related to improper finishes, as is related to adding spring pressure, or. . .
I.E. Modified Engines.
I know that people on this forum, whom I respect, have stated it is not necessary to replace those plastic lifter trays.
However, I am not of that camp!
As spring pressure moves up, link bars are the next best thing.
Move the spring pressure up more, and a 'Key-Way Lifter' is best.
Here a 'Hardened Key-Way Pin' keeps the lifter from rotating within a bronze bushing.
This is how many of the NASCAR Engines are prepared.
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Again, please do not consider me 'Rude', but. . .
Everyone runs out and puts a 'Forged Rotating Assembly' in their Aluminum 376 LSA Block.
They also usually use a higher compression piston, and add more 'Boost'
And everyone put's a larger camshaft in it.
But many do not pay attention beyond that.
Such things as; Using Proper Fuels (High Compression / More Boost) as I have been speaking about, and proper camshaft lobe finish, along with proper roller-wheel finish (more aggressive lobe / higher spring pressures), are things that can, and 'Do' destroy engines.
Cheers,
RD
I went back with plastic lifter trays in the LS3 in the Vette. Next guy's problem?
1 - 12 of 12 Posts
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