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Pump those brakes man. The comparison of auto/manual was a joke. I just like to remind all the A6 guys that they bought the wrong car.
Until getting head in traffic and don't have to worry about shifting.
 

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Not sure I understand the working out references but pics of hot chicks working out always win. The evolution of the automatic transmission has been slow and has only in recent years with cars higher in HP and Torque than ever before seen surpassed the manual. Dual clutch paddle shifters is relatively new and until VERY recently only offered in very high end/expensive cars. We all know that the the paddle shifters in the V are not in the same class, permission to shift not instant shift, it is what it is. The suggestion that manual/auto transmission is equivalent to ICE vs EV is ridiculous. Manual/auto are using the same engine, you still have a chance to prove yourself better than than the auto, the EVS are a totally new platform with no need for shifts, straight line acceleration. In a pure drag race I think they will win every time, I am more interested in track performance and endurance. To me it is more like comparing the steam engine to the gasoline engine.
Nah. ICE vs EV is exactly like the manual vs auto taken to the extreme.


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Discussion Starter · #325 ·
Nah. ICE vs EV is exactly like the manual vs auto taken to the extreme.


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The transmission or lack of is not the issue. An ICE is a completely different technology that cannot nor will ever compete with an EV for cost, performance, or daily drive-ability especially as the technology continues to evolve. Name a car of your choice that you can drive off the showroom floor that hits 0-60 in 2.8 or under, runs a qtr mile in less than 10 for let's say $150K or less, hell, let's make it $200K. Now let's add in that it is smooth and quiet, has all the luxuries, and you can fit your family in it comfortably and use it to drop your kids off at school. And it does all of this without a single modification/upgrade. I will always own, love and upgrade my ICE cars but pretending that this is not a completely new and separate class is just denial. All of the major performance brands including Cadillac are transitioning to EV.
 

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The transmission or lack of is not the issue. An ICE is a completely different technology that cannot nor will ever compete with an EV for cost, performance, or daily drive-ability especially as the technology continues to evolve. Name a car of your choice that you can drive off the showroom floor that hits 0-60 in 2.8 or under, runs a qtr mile in less than 10 for let's say $150K or less, hell, let's make it $200K. Now let's add in that it is smooth and quiet, has all the luxuries, and you can fit your family in it comfortably and use it to drop your kids off at school. And it does all of this without a single modification/upgrade. I will always own, love and upgrade my ICE cars but pretending that this is not a completely new and separate class is just denial. All of the major performance brands including Cadillac are transitioning to EV.
Nah. ICE vs EV is exactly like the manual vs auto taken to the extreme.
 

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Comparing ICE to EV is like comparing a penis to a vibrator. As long as the battery is charged the vibrator is arguably better than a penis but yet women are still having babies.
 

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This power curve tho...damn.

No one will ever say electric cars fade on the top end again. Wish we could see the torque curve too.

151575


Pretty much everything else in the presentation was a bit meh...Musk seemed lost and unprepared.
 

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Comparing ICE to EV is like comparing a penis to a vibrator. As long as the battery is charged the vibrator is arguably better than a penis but yet women are still having babies.
Mrs Tri says this is a flawed comparison. The assumption is that both items are for the woman's pleasure, when in fact the penis is primarily for yours.

One item is useful for procreation the other for pleasure. An important distinction.

Women don't have babies BECAUSE of penises. And vibrators don't get one pregnant. But both have a place in a ladies' tool belt...

And don't ask me how you test the power curve on any of that.
 

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Until getting head in traffic and don't have to worry about shifting.
M6 guys are typically married. Non-issue.

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This power curve tho...damn.

No one will ever say electric cars fade on the top end again. Wish we could see the torque curve too.

View attachment 151575

Pretty much everything else in the presentation was a bit meh...Musk seemed lost and unprepared.
I wish that WAS the torque curve lol. But you can extract the torque from this and to get that shaped power curve your torque will be falling off linearly in that whole flat section.
So, no the power doesn't fall off a cliff anymore and this is a HUGE improvement it still will feel like it is falling off because instead of a flat torque curve it is a flat power curve.
 

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This power curve tho...damn.

No one will ever say electric cars fade on the top end again. Wish we could see the torque curve too.

View attachment 151575

Pretty much everything else in the presentation was a bit meh...Musk seemed lost and unprepared.
You don't need to see the Torque curve. In an electric motor, Torque is inversely proportional to RPM. Electric motors produce the most torque when they're not turning. Electric motors have a "KV" speed constant (RPM/Volt) that determines how fast they will turn as a function of the applied voltage. As the motor's speed approaches KV * Volts, the motor's torque goes to zero. Which is why the motor has a maximum speed as a function of voltage. When the torque goes to zero, the motor can no longer accelerate. This happens because the spinning electric motor is also a generator. It produces a "back EMF" which is a voltage opposite to the voltage being applied. As the motor speeds up, that back EMF voltage increases. If the motor is "perfect" (an ideal model that can never actually exist), the back EMF equals the applied voltage at the RPM = KV * Volts speed and no current flows through the motor at all. In an electric motor, speed is proportional to Volts but torque is proportional to Current.

The reason the power curve shows that sloping increase from 0 to around 40MPH before it levels off is down to power management and not the motor. They're limiting initial torque to keep from spinning the rims right out of the tires... Once they get to some level, the system stops regulating torque, but by then the motor's torque has already dropped low enough it doesn't need to be regulated. And from that point on, torque drops proportionally with RPM increase, so the power curve is flat.
 

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You don't need to see the Torque curve. In an electric motor, Torque is inversely proportional to RPM. Electric motors produce the most torque when they're not turning. Electric motors have a "KV" speed constant (RPM/Volt) that determines how fast they will turn as a function of the applied voltage. As the motor's speed approaches KV * Volts, the motor's torque goes to zero. Which is why the motor has a maximum speed as a function of voltage. When the torque goes to zero, the motor can no longer accelerate. This happens because the spinning electric motor is also a generator. It produces a "back EMF" which is a voltage opposite to the voltage being applied. As the motor speeds up, that back EMF voltage increases. If the motor is "perfect" (an ideal model that can never actually exist), the back EMF equals the applied voltage at the RPM = KV * Volts speed and no current flows through the motor at all. In an electric motor, speed is proportional to Volts but torque is proportional to Current.

The reason the power curve shows that sloping increase from 0 to around 40MPH before it levels off is down to power management and not the motor. They're limiting initial torque to keep from spinning the rims right out of the tires... Once they get to some level, the system stops regulating torque, but by then the motor's torque has already dropped low enough it doesn't need to be regulated. And from that point on, torque drops proportionally with RPM increase, so the power curve is flat.
The power curve climbs linearly initially because power is torque times rpm. At 0 rpm there IS full torque but no power. Power requires motion.

Power will always climb until effects like back EMF, friction, or some other effect means that torque begins to drop.

In the diagram above, its clear that this car has been fairly optimized for 0-60 times. Reference where torque begins to drop off. Lower axle torque = less acceleration.

And thats why Tesla showed the power curve and not the torque curve...because it would start sloping down.

But last anyone fret - we always talk about the power curve on a combustion engine as "carrying the power way out"....which usually means that once peak power is achieved, the line stays flat as rpms carry on out on the X-axis.

So for this Plaid variant, they've arranged motor torque and gear reduction ratios to be at the limit of traction for the entire 0-60 pull. And as speed increases beyond that acceleration will indeed taper off. But this happens for any gasoline car with multiple gear ratios. As soon as you shift out of 1st gear you're gonna lose axle torque.

Ultimately axle torque matters for acceleration so long as available torque doesn't exceed available traction.

For top speed, horsepower matters. Thats why its key to carry that 1000hp all the way up to 200mph. As you go faster, air resistance becomes the predominant force to overcome, and power is king at the top end.

Now it would seem for this car, even tho delivered axle torque starts to drop above 60mph - the slope of that line is small compared to what happens when you shift from 3rs to 4th or 4th to 5th. In a 6 speed trans the peak axle torque drops with every shift.

And for 1/4 mile times in a single speed EV - its always best to accelerate at the limit of traction for as long as possible, EVEN IF your torque starts to drop at some point. You want to spend as much time at higher speeds as you can. Thats why your 60ft matters SO much.

So remember me sharing my Dragy details on my Model S? It accelerated faster than my 750+whp V2 up until around 90mph even tho we know on that car that torque starts to drop at around 50mph.

With 1000hp instead of 825, and with that torque carrying out to what looks like 60 to 80mph (it rolls over gently in this graph and isn't a sudden cusp on the graph) - I think this will accelerate comparable to an 800whp V2 until maybe 120-150mph. So the 60-130 times are going to be stout....I'll venture in the lower part of the 5 second range.

There are a few more tidbits we can infer at this point. The prior gen Model S published the motor torque in the user manual. 720 nm for the rear and 420nm for the front. Or 1240nm total. Thats about 915 ft-lbs. The gear reduction was 9.734:1 for the rear and 9.325:1 for the front. This was done to maximize acceleration on launch with weight transfer and maximize efficiency at cruise using mainly the front motor - which doesn't have as much traction on launch to use a lower ratio.

This new S takes a different approach using three identical motors, but two on the rear axle, eliminating the need for a differential and allowing torque vectoring. We could infer that you could even have the inside wheel use regenerative braking and feed that power directly to the outside wheel for some Hellish corner exits.

I've heard rumors that each of these motors makes around 420 to 450nm of torque. Thats a total of 1260 to 1350. That's more than the prior Model S but with a steeper final drive ratio of 7.5:1 we can see that this is probably optimized for axle torque.

Ok...thats enough for now. I haven't blasted y'all.with a long-ass Tri post in a while now.

Oh...and these wheels are fire:

151591
151592
 

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Tri has changed. Those wheels look like shit compared to the whales .

I look forward to driving a new tesla plaid . I'm sure It will be fun.

The day I can no longer manually drive my car is when I think I'll be ready to give up on life.

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I see the same body lines as the 2012 model.


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Hot girls today have the same lines as hot girls 10,20,30,40,50 years ago.

Her UI may have been updated but the lines are classic.

Tri has changed. Those wheels look like shit compared to the whales .

I look forward to driving a new tesla plaid . I'm sure It will be fun.

The day I can no longer manually drive my car is when I think I'll be ready to give up on life.

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Really? I thought they had similar lines. The single core spoke that splits.

And yeah - the lines are a little soft on these. The Forgelines were cut a little sharper.

That said there are some carbon fiber aftermarket wheels now that look tempting. 16lbs each. Add carbon ceramic brakes that shed another 10-12lbs per corner and this version should run 8s.
 
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Hot girls today have the same lines as hot girls 10,20,30,40,50 years ago.

Her UI may have been updated but the lines are classic.



Really? I thought they had similar lines. The single core spoke that splits.

And yeah - the lines are a little soft on these. The Forgelines were cut a little sharper.

That said there are some carbon fiber aftermarket wheels now that look tempting. 16lbs each. Add carbon ceramic brakes that shed another 10-12lbs per corner and this version should run 8s.
Using your analogy, I’ll agree with you, then. Then Model S will now be referred to here as:

Butterface


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