[CTSYEE]

Aiming for north of 900. Most recent dyno session produced just under 800 on E85, but was a tune on a fresh motor.

• LS9 block, forged crank/rods/pistons
• Mast 12° heads
• Custom cam
• Ported blower w/ZL1 lid
• 2.35 upper, 9.1 crank
• ID1300s, fore triple pump setup
• Katech hear exchanger
• NW TB, ported snout, 4" intake
• 2" longtubes
• Built auto

It's a Midsouth car. Plan is to have it turned up and see what it will make. Internals are all rated for 1200hp or more. Question is, will this setup get me to that 900-950 mark without any other modifications outside of the tune?

 

[MrSurly]

Sounds like a pretty healthy build. Making necessary assumptions about cam profile/displacement/CR and valve/TB/blower sizes I would guess you'll be in good shape to do 900

 

[CTSYEE]

Sounds like a pretty healthy build. Making necessary assumptions about cam profile/displacement/CR and valve/TB/blower sizes I would guess you'll be in good shape to do 900

Cam specs fall somewhere between the cam motion stage 2/3. 621/604 228/242 119+5. Builder figured compression at approx 10.3. TB is a NW 102.

 

[Karch]

Curious why you are chasing a number.

Best way is to find a happy dyno.

LS9 block, right?

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[CTSYEE]

Curious why you are chasing a number.

Best way is to find a happy dyno.

LS9 block, right?

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LS9 block.

Not necessarily chasing a number, more just setting expectations for the build. If it doesn't make it, it doesn't make it. Won't hurt my feelings.... that much.

 

[Karch]

Gotcha. It’s a tall order and it’s very stressful on the aluminum bottom end (crank saddle area, specifically).


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[Rubber Duck]

Aiming for north of 900. Most recent dyno session produced just under 800 on E85, but was a tune on a fresh motor.

• LS9 block, forged crank/rods/pistons
• Mast 12° heads
• Custom cam
• Ported blower w/ZL1 lid
• 2.35 upper, 9.1 crank
• ID1300s, fore triple pump setup
• Katech hear exchanger
• NW TB, ported snout, 4" intake
• 2" longtubes
• Built auto

It's a Midsouth car. Plan is to have it turned up and see what it will make. Internals are all rated for 1200hp or more. Question is, will this setup get me to that 900-950 mark without any other modifications outside of the tune?

A couple of considerations first:
You have not indicated how large the engine is (CID).
You have not indicated at what engine rpm you are going to shift.

If those are the Mast 12° Heads, which have the 2.204" Intake Valve, you can't use them with the LS9 Engine Block, unless your going to have the engine completely re-sleeved, which is very, very expensive.

-on gasoline-
The camshaft is a little small for +900 rwHP,
Would need some really good flowing heads with that cam.

While I see you used E85 on your last Dyno Session, you have not indicated within
your new build which fuel you will use, which is most important with these engines.

If the car is not a daily driver, you might consider increasing the duration of the camshaft a bit.

Even with the duration increase, you will have to pulley the blower speed up fairly radically.

Cheers

 

[CTSYEE]

A couple of considerations first:
You have not indicated how large the engine is (CID).
You have not indicated at what engine rpm you are going to shift.

If those are the Mast 12° Heads, which have the 2.204" Intake Valve, you can't use them with the LS9 Engine Block, unless your going to have the engine completely re-sleeved, which is very, very expensive.

-on gasoline-
The camshaft is a little small for +900 rwHP,
Would need some really good flowing heads with that cam.

While I see you used E85 on your last Dyno Session, you have not indicated within
your new build which fuel you will use, which is most important with these engines.

If the car is not a daily driver, you might consider increasing the duration of the camshaft a bit.

Even with the duration increase, you will have to pulley the blower speed up fairly radically.

Cheers

The heads have 2.165 intake valves. Stock cubes on the motor and it will remain on E. Haven't made a determination on what we're going to spin the motor to as of right now. I had originally planned on staying with the 2.35/9.1 pulley combo, but I'm not opposed yo changing out pullies if the blower needs to be sped up, either.

 

[Rubber Duck]

The heads have 2.165 intake valves. Stock cubes on the motor and it will remain on E. Haven't made a determination on what we're going to spin the motor to as of right now. I had originally planned on staying with the 2.35/9.1 pulley combo, but I'm not opposed yo changing out pullies if the blower needs to be sped up, either.

Working with the concept of building or modding an engine, based on a HP Goal, is the best way to approach a build. Of course Karch knows that, and is simply being a comedian again..

So the first question always is, how high do I need to spin my engine, in order to generate sufficient piston speed, in order to move sufficient air through the engine.

The pulley ratio you choose, is also related to the internal capacity of the blower, versus blower rpm.

So, an 1900 cc blower, converts to an internal volume of 116 cid.
What if we use a pulley ratio of (9.1 / 2.35)= 3.87.

If we multiply 116 * 3.87, we find that we now have a blower,
which is going to pump out an equivalent 449 cid.

If we are going to shift the engine at 6800 rpm, we will be able to move how much air. . .
=> (449 * 6800 / 3456)= 884 cfm.

If we compress 884 cfm, using 2-BAR of Absolute (ABS) Pressure, we increase the Density Ratio.
This can be estimated by taking the Square Root of the ABS Value.

This then would amount to. . .
Sqrt (2)=1.41

Allowing for 'No Loss Factors' How HP will 884 cfm provide for on 'Gasoline'. . .
=> (884 * 1.41 / 1.5)= 830 fwHP, on an Engine Dyno.

How much rwHP. . .
Depends..lol

From experience, I would actually estimate that 830 fwHP
between 669 fwHP to 715 fwHP, after losses. But that HP
can push one of these cars down the track, to an 10.xx ET.

And in my opinion, what you see on your time slip, is all that counts..

Cheers

 

[Karch]

I wasn’t being a comedian, actually.

OP stated he’s looking for 900-950 hp. No mention of flywheel or wheel horsepower.

Either way, one is very stressful on an LSA or LS9 aluminum block, whereas the other is certainly going to meet an early demise, again, on the factory aluminum block.

Then there’s the aspect of being able to produce that amount of net power with a ported 1900 blower.

So, getting back to my question of why, it’s to maybe help the OP really ask himself if he’s looking for that much power to run a 9.20 timeslip, or whatever the actual reason.

I don’t know the OP, appears to be new here, perhaps he/she has a lot of experience but perhaps not?

While some members want to see everyone reach their stated hp goals, I am more about not seeing carnage and disappointment/sadness when someone builds too much power for the block, the chassis, the racing class, or god forbid the streets they might choose to drive on.


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[Rubber Duck]

I wasn’t being a comedian, actually.

OP stated he’s looking for 900-950 hp. No mention of flywheel or wheel horsepower.

Either way, one is very stressful on an LSA or LS9 aluminum block, whereas the other is certainly going to meet an early demise, again, on the factory aluminum block.

Then there’s the aspect of being able to produce that amount of net power with a ported 1900 blower.

So, getting back to my question of why, it’s to maybe help the OP really ask himself if he’s looking for that much power to run a 9.20 timeslip, or whatever the actual reason.

I don’t know the OP, appears to be new here, perhaps he/she has a lot of experience but perhaps not?

While some members want to see everyone reach their stated hp goals, I am more about not seeing carnage and disappointment/sadness when someone builds too much power for the block, the chassis, the racing class, or god forbid the streets they might choose to drive on.


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This post is what I meant Steve. . .

Curious why you are chasing a number.

Best way is to find a happy dyno.

LS9 block, right?

----------------------------------------------

And I certainly agree with you regarding what you call 'Carnage' if one chases a fwHP number that exceeds the ability of the engine block, and internal engine parts used. This argument, matter of fact, is one that we debated heavily on this forum back in the beginning. Many back then felt they could build +900 rwHP engines, using an LS3.

The need for 8-Counterweight Crankshafts also took a bit of debating for a while, before they were accepted.

This forum has helped many understand what is needed for a given build, regarding HP goals, as well as how much HP certain engine parts can sustain, before self destructing.

Cheers

 

[Karch]

We had an elderly member who I met several times in person.

His car ran ok, after numerous shops, but he wasn’t satisfied.

I think he was around 670 rwhp but he was adamant about getting a 700 hp number.

I asked how he drives it?

He said always within the speed limits…always.

I asked do you ever take it to a track?

He said no, never.

He had been taken to the cleaners by Hennessy first, then D3.

He couldn’t even get the cam specs. Only way was to pull it and cam doctor it.

I said, so, all you want is a dyno sheet that starts with a 7xx?
You don’t roll race, drag race, speed, or race at the track.

I suggested, and while it may seem like sarcasm, it wasn’t…to go to Church’s Dyno. They have a hub dyno and the numbers are always way higher than any chassis dyno in the LA area.

I mean, if you aren’t going to use it, why keep tossing money and make it less reliable and more temperamental, not to mention heat soak issues and the rest.

I haven’t seen him in years, and haven’t seen him on the forum. He was having some health issues and I do hope he’s doing well.


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[Karch]

And, by the way, in my work, I try to manage my customers’ expectations. Both with performance of that what I sell as well as our deliveries of late.


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[Rubber Duck]

We had an elderly member who I met several times in person.

His car ran ok, after numerous shops, but he wasn’t satisfied.

I think he was around 670 rwhp but he was adamant about getting a 700 hp number.

I asked how he drives it?

He said always within the speed limits…always.

I asked do you ever take it to a track?

He said no, never.

He had been taken to the cleaners by Hennessy first, then D3.

He couldn’t even get the cam specs. Only way was to pull it and cam doctor it.

I said, so, all you want is a dyno sheet that starts with a 7xx?
You don’t roll race, drag race, speed, or race at the track.

I suggested, and while it may seem like sarcasm, it wasn’t…to go to Church’s Dyno. They have a hub dyno and the numbers are always way higher than any chassis dyno in the LA area.

I mean, if you aren’t going to use it, why keep tossing money and make it less reliable and more temperamental, not to mention heat soak issues and the rest.

I haven’t seen him in years, and haven’t seen him on the forum. He was having some health issues and I do hope he’s doing well.


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Yes, he was a very nice person, who I also spoke to on several occasions.

He, as you stated, simply felt that for as much money as he had spent for the Hennessy,
that it should have delivered more HP.

And he was, as you know, bound and determined to find that HP..lol
I think it was simply a matter of pride. . . . .

But he purchased that Hennessy, right about the time that power from such companies as Hennessy and other companies, were selling cars with engine Mod packages, which made ~625 - 650 HP. This was right about the time that members of this forum began producing a bit more than that. So he moved quickly, but in the end it might have been better to wait, and go the Mod Route that this forum helped to develop out.

 

[Bbart25]

How much rwhp would you veterans say the V2’s can reliably make on stock internals till things start to have premature failures?

 

[Karch]

How much rwhp would you veterans say the V2’s can reliably make on stock internals till things start to have premature failures?

It’s not a simple answer, as it really depends how hard you drive it as well.

Repeated use at max power is going to put a hurting on the stock pistons, and the crank saddles to some extent.

750 is about max if you don’t constantly go that hard, else maybe 700???

It’s really hard to say, mileage may also have an effect.

My own car, I tried to increase its efficiency as much as possible, intake to exhaust, but I also wanted a mild cam (it’s not a race car, and I’m not young), and also still use high performance summer tires.


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[Rubber Duck]

It’s not a simple answer, as it really depends how hard you drive it as well.

Repeated use at max power is going to put a hurting on the stock pistons, and the crank saddles to some extent.

750 is about max if you don’t constantly go that hard, else maybe 700???

It’s really hard to say, mileage may also have an effect.

My own car, I tried to increase its efficiency as much as possible, intake to exhaust, but I also wanted a mild cam (it’s not a race car, and I’m not young), and also still use high performance summer tires.


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Karch is correct!

After ~750 rwHP, the engine block can't seal the engine ideally anymore.
After ~800 rwHP, the crankshaft begins to whip.

Moral of the story:
One can easily make ~660 rwHP with these engines.
That number easily puts these cars into the 10.xx second bracket.

Once you move above 700 fwHP, move the appropriate engine block and fully counterweight crankshaft, which consists of 8-Individual counterweights.

And don't forget the mass flow recovery system, as well as the proper fuel.

 

[Bbart25]

Thanks. I’m making ~650 rwHP now and of course I want all the horsepowers but that little voice of reason sometimes whispers to me not to fuck up a perfectly good car by over doing it and winding up with a giant paper weight.

 

[Karch]

Thanks. I’m making ~650 rwHP now and of course I want all the horsepowers but that little voice of reason sometimes whispers to me not to fuck up a perfectly good car by over doing it and winding up with a giant paper weight.

If it’s your daily, enjoy it, honestly.

If not…speed costs money, how fast do you want to go?


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[Rubber Duck]

Thanks. I’m making ~650 rwHP now and of course I want all the horsepowers but that little voice of reason sometimes whispers to me not to fuck up a perfectly good car by over doing it and winding up with a giant paper weight.

People seem to desire more HP, even if it is not usable.

-for daily driving-
Even a CTS-V, having ~650 rwHP, can be a handful when driving it.
So, why would anyone want 750, 850, etc.

For actual racing purposes, then I might understand.

I don't know how many times I have been down a well prepped quarter mile track.
But you could not give me enough money, for me to race a Maxed out CTS-V, down an un-prepped street,