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ERL has been gone almost 4 years now.



Not quite what I'm looking for, but thank you for the post 馃榿



After reading that, I thought I could hear Jeff Foxworthy saying, "then you might be a redneck"!

My goal is 920 whp with a factory converter ZL1. A modified LSA will get me there, but the block will be the weak link after the rods and pistons. I just hate to buy all the studs, do all the machine work, etc...and have the block fail. The LSA block is all but oil cooled as it is. With all that oil spraying around, all that windage, an easily modified factory oil cooling system... If I buy a Dart SHP Pro block, why not go 427-440? Buy some better 6 bolt heads. Shot for 1800fwhp... No good place to stop.
You wrote:
"With all that oil spraying around, all that windage, an easily modified factory oil cooling system"
All that oil 'Spraying Around' as you put it cost you large amounts of HP.
Reducing 'Windage' is what helps you reduce parasitics HP.
On an 'Wet Sump' you want to keep the oil in the pan where it belongs.

You also wrote:
" If I buy a Dart SHP Pro block, why not go 427-440?"

And you also wrote:
" Shot for 1800fwhp... No good place to stop."


Let's see; 1800 fwHP would require about. . .
=> (1800 * 1.5)= 2,700 CFM, @ around 70掳F temperature at the inlet / TB.

What blower might you be considering?
As your engine will be working in 'Compressible Flow',
because the engine will be demanding an 'Equivalent Flow' of ~750 cfm . . :eek:!

Remember; the density of air with a blower, means the density
of the air is determined by the square root of the pressure ratio.

So if the pressure ratio (Absolute Pressure Ratio_ABS) is
two (2), then the square root of 2 equals 1.4142

So if we desire to 'Double' the density of the air, then we must
increase the pressure ratio to the value of four (4).

I state the above, because an 440 cid engine will produce
about 890 fwHP to 915 fwHP at 100% cylinder fill.

So the scenario you created, would mean your ABS_Pressure Ratio
would have to be about 4.0.

Going to take a damn good blower to do that..lol

Cheers,
RD
 
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Discussion Starter #22
Lets not put the cart before the horse. I'm not off to another block yet. Even though, a friend offered to obtain said block for a screaming good deal;) And, even then, I'm not sure 1.8khp would be the goal... But if it were, I'm sure twin hairdryers, and some spray would take me to the limits of that block. I would not tool around with a blower at that point.

Sure, the effects of windage is not lost upon me, but it would be tough to control with all that oil being pissed on the pistons... And, I would not want to cut more ventilation into a LSA block.

I can consider the parasitic a calculated loss, but I must admit I don't care for the aeration of the oil. However, I kinda don't see this as an issue an 1/8th mile at a time.

My point, of course, was if any of these engines are oil cooled, the LSA is.
 

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Lets not put the cart before the horse. I'm not off to another block yet. Even though, a friend offered to obtain said block for a screaming good deal;) And, even then, I'm not sure 1.8khp would be the goal... But if it were, I'm sure twin hairdryers, and some spray would take me to the limits of that block. I would not tool around with a blower at that point.

Sure, the effects of windage is not lost upon me, but it would be tough to control with all that oil being pissed on the pistons... And, I would not want to cut more ventilation into a LSA block.

I can consider the parasitic a calculated loss, but I must admit I don't care for the aeration of the oil. However, I kinda don't see this as an issue an 1/8th mile at a time.

My point, of course, was if any of these engines are oil cooled, the LSA is.

Not too sure where you going with this. . . .

First you state:
"My point, of course, was if any of these engines are oil cooled, the LSA is"

And then you also state:
"but I must admit I don't care for the aeration of the oil"


Your going to either have one or the other..LOL

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

You also wrote:
" However, I kinda don't see this as an issue an 1/8th mile at a time"


But you also have to drive the car to the staging lines, start and stop it
as the lanes move forward, unless you push it, and then make the
burn-out and. . . Then. . . .You must drive the car back to the pits, after
racing the 1/8th mile under full throttle conditions.

Finally; these engines are prone to detonation.

Detonation in these engines is caused by several things,
but the primary cause of 'Self Detonation' is heat.

Heat is related to pressure: if you raise the pressure (even with
twin hair-dryers) your also going to generate more heat as the piston
moves closer to TDC on the compression stroke.

If you put four times the air through the engine, your going to
also have to put four times the fuel through the engine.

Air plus fuel equals => 'Mass Charge'. . . .

Four times the 'Mass Charge' doesn't work well with a
wedge head, which typically has about a 0.040 piston to
cylinder head deck clearance / quench gap.

Pressures rise very high within that 'Quench Gap' at TDC,
resulting in generating much heat.

That is exactly why many convert a wedge head, to an open chambered head.
Many times this is simply called. . . . 'Softening The Head'.

All of the oil that your thinking is going to cool this engine,
'Can't' cool 'The Top' of the piston, only 'The Bottom' the piston.

I think you should add a 'Radiator' and some 'Water' to that oil cooling idea. . .<Big Wink>!

Take care!

RD
 
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Discussion Starter #24
Not too sure where you going with this. . . .

First you state:
"My point, of course, was if any of these engines are oil cooled, the LSA is"
I'm not push some agenda, or pertisapating in any real debate here... Just explaining my rationale. And, that was not my first statement, but the last.

And then you also state:
"but I must admit I don't care for the aeration of the oil"


Your going to either have one or the other..LOL
I see nothing in my posts that might lead you to believe that I was unaware of this...

You also wrote:
" However, I kinda don't see this as an issue an 1/8th mile at a time"


But you also have to drive the car to the staging lines, start and stop it
as the lanes move forward, unless you push it, and then make the
burn-out and. . . Then. . . .You must drive the car back to the pits, after
racing the 1/8th mile under full throttle conditions.
"Relative". Relative to all the modified daily drivers on this forum. I do not believe my windage problem will be any worse than it is now.

Finally; these engines are prone to detonation.
You don't say :confused: Hence my search for actual experience filling one of these blocks for street service...

That is exactly why many convert a wedge head, to an open chambered head.
Many times this is simply called. . . . 'Softening The Head'.
Or a custom dish piston which is more apt to increase HP. I would not soften the head beyond improved flow from unshrouding the intake valve.

All of the oil that your thinking is going to cool this engine,
'Can't' cool 'The Top' of the piston, only 'The Bottom' the piston.
I have made no such claim. Again, hence my query. BTW, the unfilled block won't cool the top of the piston either;)

I think you should add a 'Radiator' and some 'Water' to that oil cooling idea. . .<Big Wink>!
I'm sure there are several options to investigate馃榿

BTW, we are discussing a potential 920whp LSA. Not the merely aforementioned fantasy motor...
 

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I'm not push some agenda, or pertisapating in any real debate here... Just explaining my rationale. And, that was not my first statement, but the last.



I see nothing in my posts that might lead you to believe that I was unaware of this...



"Relative". Relative to all the modified daily drivers on this forum. I do not believe my windage problem will be any worse than it is now.



You don't say :confused: Hence my search for actual experience filling one of these blocks for street service...



Or a custom dish piston which is more apt to increase HP. I would not soften the head beyond improved flow from unshrouding the intake valve.



I have made no such claim. Again, hence my query. BTW, the unfilled block won't cool the top of the piston either;)



I'm sure there are several options to investigate馃榿

BTW, we are discussing a potential 920whp LSA. Not the merely aforementioned fantasy motor...
My friend;
I think you have your 'Panties' in a bunch over my posts..LOL

I was simply attempting to play the 'Devils Advocate' for you,
on your behalf, in an attempt to consider potential negative issues
related to your project.

I was filling (concreting as you say) small block Chevrolet's blocks,
andI was also welding heads for more flow area, etc. back in the
1970's.

I was very happy when aftermarket blocks became available,
so we did not have to do that anymore.

I was just as happy when better aftermarket heads became
available, and we no longer had to knock the tops off the intake
runners and weld (furnace braze) plates in place, in order to get
sufficient flow area for the fwHP we desired / required to be
competitive.

All of the above was 'Fraught' with a 'Multitude' of problems.

I was simply attempting to give you some helpful insight, but it
appears you have your mind made up. Now that you have made
that clear to me, everything is good with me. . . .

One more thing:
Concreting the block 'Might' help to stiffen the cylinder walls.

I say might, because there are critical areas, within certain
cylinders on these engine platforms, that might not be helped
by adding concrete. . . .

But also; what about the problems with the main bearing webbing
flexing in these blocks, at power levels less than your 920 fwHP
when using an LSA Aluminum Block to concrete / fill?

And finally (my last comment on this subject) what about the
cylinder head clamping issue with the stock heads, only using
4-Bolts to clamp the heads to the block?

Are you going to an aftermarket head?

So with the above; I wish you the best (seriously), and please don't
hesitate to post back your experiences after you complete your build.

If everything works for you, and I hope it does, I will be the first to give you applause..馃槃

Best of luck!
RD
 

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My friend;
I think you have your 'Panties' in a bunch over my posts..LOL

I was simply attempting to play the 'Devils Advocate' for you,
on your behalf, in an attempt to consider potential negative issues
related to your project.

I was filling (concreting as you say) small block Chevrolet's blocks, and
I was also welding heads for more flow area, etc. back in the 1970's.

I was very happy when aftermarket blocks became available,
so we did not have to do that anymore.

I was just as happy when better aftermarket heads became available, and we
no longer had to knock the tops off the intake runners and weld (furnace braze)
plates in place, in order to get sufficient flow area for the fwHP we desired / required
to be competitive.

All of the above was 'Fraught' with a 'Multitude' of problems.

I was simply attempting to give you some helpful insight, but it appears
you have your mind made up. Now that you have made that clear to me,
everything is good with me. . . .

One more thing:
Concreting the block 'Might' help to stiffen the cylinder walls.

I say might, because there are critical areas, within certain
cylinders on these engine platforms, that might not be helped
by adding concrete. . . .

But also; what about the problems with the main bearing webbing flexing
in these blocks, at power levels less than your 920 fwHP when using
an LSA Aluminum Block to concrete / fill?

And finally (my last comment on this subject) what about the
cylinder head clamping issue with the stock heads, only using
4-Bolts to clamp the heads to the block?

Are you going to an aftermarket head?

So with the above; I wish you the best (seriously), and please don't
hesitate to post back your experiences after you complete your build.

If everything works for you, and I hope it does, I will be the first to give you applause..馃槃

Best of luck!
RD
You're classy guy, Duck.
 

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Discussion Starter #27 (Edited)
My friend;
I think you have your 'Panties' in a bunch over my posts..LOL
LOL! I'm glad we're friends, but I don't wear panties... And even though we now live in a much more fragile place. A place were truth and reason are often cited as victimizing hapless individuals...:rolleyes: I can assure you they would not have been in a wad.

I appreciate your feedback. And, I have a nasty habit of taking people to task on their position. None the less, I appreciate the benefit of your experience.

I also have this tendency of trying to squeeze a dime out of a nickle. I probably contracted this disorder from my customers :LOL: But seriously, the engineer in me likes exploring the limits. And just being different. When I see all the success (limited) making that kind of hp with a studded LSA block, it encourages me to attempt bad things:devilish: So, it come down to... Do I sell the LSA while it is worth something, or destroy it attempting... It reminds me a contestants on Lets Make a Deal. Some what to to play it safe and go home with $1k in their pocket, and others are like $1k is nothing, "I want to play"! And, they generally go home with nothing:cautious::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO: Sometimes we are just throwing money away, while other times we are buying an education.

I say might, because there are critical areas, within certain
cylinders on these engine platforms, that might not be helped
by adding concrete.
True, but I can not fill the whole block.

But also; what about the problems with the main bearing webbing
flexing in these blocks, at power levels less than your 920 fwHP
when using an LSA Aluminum Block to concrete / fill?
True. But, I do not have any immediate plan for any kind of girdle. More clearance and the oil to go along with it will definitely be part of the deal.

And finally (my last comment on this subject) what about the
cylinder head clamping issue with the stock heads, only using
4-Bolts to clamp the heads to the block?
Studs and a prayer.

Are you going to an aftermarket head?
No. I'm going to try to get there with all the factory heads/block/crank/blower. And there is a better than fair chance I will not get there, but I'm going to try.

BTW, I ordered a Dart SHP Pro block and a 4" billet crank today. Thinking about building the heads from an edelbrock casting.
 

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BTW, I ordered a Dart SHP Pro block and a 4" billet crank today. Thinking about building the heads from an edelbrock casting.
Okay, we will give this one more try and see if we can avoid it going in the same
direction (Upside Down..lol) as last time when I post. . .

First, you not going to be able to meet the Piston CFM demand with a pair of ported LSA Heads.
Your looking at Edelbrock Heads now. . . .Good!

Since your dealing with Dart at this point, let me give you some info you 'Might Not'(?) know about. . .

Dart has what they call a PRO1 Cylinder head for LS7 Engines.
It uses, as it should (the LSA does not) a 2.204" intake valve.

The 2.204" valve is good for up to a 4.155" bore, which is what I would
suggest as the bore for this cylinder head.

If you go to a 4.185" Bore, you can go to a 2.220" valve, but this
valve will cost you more, as it is not a standard size.

In case your wondering; I have both empirical, as well as flow bench
data to support that in my personal files.

The combustion chamber, which is fully CNC Machined (not just polished
for fluff purposes) is one of the best looking / shaped combustion chambers
an over the counter cylinder head for the LS Engine Platform.

Dart could not fix all the problems with the 'Crappy' LS Combustion chamber,
but they have attended to, and fixed a few of the important ones (JMHO).

Here is a picture and a link: Under The Valve Covers Of Dart's New LS7-Style Pro1 Cylinder Heads - Dart Machinery

147677


A few pertinent flow numbers relating to our FI Engines Flow Requirements:

0.400293208
0.500334230
0.600361244

Finally, just for curiosity purposes; What bore are you going to choose?

Cheers,
RD
 

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Discussion Starter #29
Okay, we will give this one more try and see if we can avoid it going in the same
direction (Upside Down..lol) as last time when I post. . .
I'm not sure what you are making "one more" stab at. I have no problems with anyone here. I am obviously open to other's views/experience/advice, or I would have never posted... Now...if I am not responding as I should... You'll have to pardon me until I learn the ropes around here. Even then, I am part polish, and have been accused of being argumentative :whistle: However, I would always leave an opening for your wonderful proofs :D

First, you not going to be able to meet the Piston CFM demand with a pair of ported LSA Heads.
Your looking at Edelbrock Heads now. . . .Good!
There are now two different motors being discussed. My LSA, and a block/crank. I would never put lsa heads on that dart block. I'm not stuck on dart just because I can get a deal. I have looked at them.
Finally, just for curiosity purposes; What bore are you going to choose?
I do not know yet. The block is roughed in to 4.115 or 4.120 iirc, so it will be 4.125"+. If it is boosted, I would not exceed 4.185". N/A...I don't know. N/A became a possibility with some of the heads out there like the dart 10 deg. The edelbrock I was referring to is a modified lsr. It is a head that WJ welded up, puttied, moved things around, altered the water jacket, and had re-cast. The cnc-ed result is a 8 deg with a 3 deg cant that places a 2.3xx" valve in a ~4.200" bore. Said head with a small shot would do. Either head is likely too fast for boost.

Regarding the lsa... I'm just having fun. I thought about selling it before I likely destroy it, but where is the fun in that? The big motor is on the back burner. I'm just collecting a few parts while the getting is good.
 

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I'm not sure what you are making "one more" stab at. I have no problems with anyone here. I am obviously open to other's views/experience/advice, or I would have never posted... Now...if I am not responding as I should... You'll have to pardon me until I learn the ropes around here. Even then, I am part polish, and have been accused of being argumentative :whistle: However, I would always leave an opening for your wonderful proofs :D



There are now two different motors being discussed. My LSA, and a block/crank. I would never put lsa heads on that dart block. I'm not stuck on dart just because I can get a deal. I have looked at them.


I do not know yet. The block is roughed in to 4.115 or 4.120 iirc, so it will be 4.125"+. If it is boosted, I would not exceed 4.185". N/A...I don't know. N/A became a possibility with some of the heads out there like the dart 10 deg. The edelbrock I was referring to is a modified lsr. It is a head that WJ welded up, puttied, moved things around, altered the water jacket, and had re-cast. The cnc-ed result is a 8 deg with a 3 deg cant that places a 2.3xx" valve in a ~4.200" bore. Said head with a small shot would do. Either head is likely too fast for boost.

Regarding the lsa... I'm just having fun. I thought about selling it before I likely destroy it, but where is the fun in that? The big motor is on the back burner. I'm just collecting a few parts while the getting is good.
You wrote:
"It is a head that WJ welded up, puttied, moved things around, altered the water jacket, and had re-cast. The cnc-ed result is a 8 deg with a 3 deg cant that places a 2.3xx" valve in a ~4.200" bore. Said head with a small shot would do. Either head is likely too fast for boost."

I knew that WJ had been working on a new head with Edelbrock for the LS Engine.
With the above info. . . . I am 'Assuming' this is the same head your speaking about.

Rumor was they were attempting to overcome strength / support issues where the
rocker arm assembly fastens to the head, but I was not aware they had completed
the project.

They were hoping to make 3.0 fwHP per CID with this head.

NA on Gasoline, with a 400 CID Engine, similar as to what is
used for Australian Pro Stock.

But that is going to be a very 'High-Dollar' head I would think. . . .

Here is a picture of the head, deck side, before machining. . . .

147740


Here is a picture of the head on the rocker arm side, where they were,
as per the rumor, allegedly having issues surrounding fastening the
rocker arm bar assembly, and retaining sufficient strength after machining.

147741
 
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