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A Seriously Surly Coupe

217K views 3K replies 67 participants last post by  Ravenclaw_V 
#1 · (Edited)
================================================================================================================================= TLDR: There are a couple hundred posts covering a range of not build stuff topics including a boat restoration(!). To skip all this not build stuff content and go to the actual start of the real rebooted build stuff ten MONTHs in the future (2022!), just click here: The Surly 427 Plan!
==================================================================================================================================

Well, here goes. I'm making a build thread for preliminary discussion prior to making changes. I'm doing it this way not because I'm being smart about it but simply because I ordered a few parts, started tinkering and then learned that my job requires that I travel for a while. So I am likely going to be overseas for a month or two so I might as well work on a plan for when I return.

The car: 2011 V coupe BDE Stick Shift Slick Roof 134k miles.
The realistic 'first build' plan: low-level bolt-ons, puley/brick/HX/CAI/ and the required support pieces, maybe pick up 70~80 hp?

The someday "second build" plan: reach 700 rwhp withOUT short block or heads AND remain as outwardly low-key as manageable.

What is done so far:
3" Mid pipes with X, withOUT 2nd cats.
Primary cats gutted.
Z06 wheels and MT DRs
That is ALL, stock everything else right now, air filter to muffler.
HP Tuner bought, I changed the stock file to "no mil" on 420 and 430 (cats)

What I have ordered:
2.5" Mepco pulley
solid isolator
AFE Momentum gt CAI


What I planned before being called away:
Install isolator and while I'm in there (here we go...) port the blower and the snout, add the pulley, reinforce the brick

Next on my mental list to acquire:
heat exchanger
HX pump

It's been suggested that I'm severely lacking in my plan.
Feel free to offer direction!
 
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#516 · (Edited)
don't sell the LSA drive off your car.
To clarify: I'm not planning to pull the balancer, timing cover or lower pulley or the upper pulley. I do plan to keep the assorted brackets for accessory mounting and idlers. Effectively the whole 'belt system', but tell me if there's something I'm overlooking.
 
#518 ·
I have an AFe Momentum GT CAI which is a good-lookin piece o' kit. I had hoped to continue running it but with my new build I am going to need a much larger air pipe. This AFe unit has a humongous filter and a well-crafted box and sideswipe. It could EASILY support a 5" tube to the throttle body so I hoped AFe would sell me a bigger pipe. I called them and nope! The products they make are awesome, but they only build stuff for essentially stock builds. Rats! Now I'm thinking about building one myself! OR...I'll need to buy a another new CAI with a 4.5 or bigger pipe.

Bicycle part Automotive design Font Auto part Automotive tire
 
#522 ·
DDP is a quality piece, with a massive green filter. I’d personally be cautious with wx as of late but just my .02
 
#531 ·
Message received.
DDP ordered from DDP.
At least it's on sale.
I liked that the DDP looks like the Airaid giving a good look to the engine bay.
 
#532 · (Edited)
I looked at those. It looks like their fitment is much lower in the fender well, closer to the brake duct.
Better/worse, dunno.
The DDP is ordered, we'll see if it's available. If it's not, the RPM is definitely in the running.

Damned shame that the AFE box doesnt offer a 'big tube' version as their box and filter are huge....and nery nice to look at; just needs a big pipe. Oh, well.
 
#545 ·
It's best to keep the plug wires short. . ..
 
#544 ·
What would one use to accomplish this?
Wouldn't it have to be something that formed a heat barrier. . . .
 
#549 · (Edited)
Here is some info I simply cut and pasted regarding various LS Coils.
I am just throwing this out there for those interested to consider. . . .

Any comments. . .

The energy is stored in the iron core as a magnetic field (magnetic flux).
The bigger and heavier the core, the more energy it can store.
likewise a small lightweight one stores less.

Bigger is always better.

--------------------------------------------------

I think “minimum output voltage 40kV” should stay “no less than 40kV”.
Output voltage vs turns ratio vs primary clamp voltage, yeah, if the coupling was perfect your figures would definitely be so. Maybe leakage reactance between the primary and secondary lets the secondary swing a bit higher than would otherwise be the case?
They don’t state at what primary current the primary inductance is measured. Might be 4.8mH at only 1 amp and of course decreases as the current ramps up. Stick your current clamp and scope on the primary feed wire and have a look. Guarantee the current trace gets steeper and the current increases, showing that the inductance is going down. At 19 amps no way is the inductance going to still be 4.8mH. My gut feeling is the energy at 19 amps is going to be in the 150-180mJ range, not 866mJ in a million years. That is still quite a lot though. For 9 amps probably close to 130mJ.

---------------------------------------------------

I don't know which ones are considered best however, I have never had a problem using the D581 coils from pre-2007 GM trucks.

NA or high boosted conditions; aftermarket systems or converted O.E.M. systems ... these coils seem to work very well for whatever reasoning.

---------------------------------------------------

D585 AC Delco#, These are supposed to be the "hot" truck coils, but there are AC Delco and Melco/Mitsubishi versions and different model #'s over time. LS2 Trucks, 2002-2005 Escalade, 2000-2006 Yukon, 1999-2006 Silverado, 2001-2005 Trail Blazer. GM #10457730; Delphi (round, 10.5" wire)19005218; Melco/Mitsubishi (square, 9.2" wire) #12558693 ---These Melcos are supposed to be the best, but I've found supposed D585 Melco square coils with this # that don't have external heatsinks at all. It appears that Melco/Mitsu created a 2nd generation of this D585 coil with #88894393 (in the 1999-2006 timeframe)

D585 is the choice. After that, IGN1a.
The GM coils self limit on dwell so you can command whatever you want but it won't change it unless you are lower. The IGN1a's need their own relay per bank because you can really make a welder out of those bad mofo's.

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The LS7 coil is the good one of the bunch, and dwell is actually closer to 3ms on those. Leave plug gaps as-received and definitely keep on using resistor plugs.

---------------------------------------------------

Spark duration actually decreased with resistor plugs.

-2-Links below

Example of three different resistance values

harrastajan albumit.


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#555 ·
I noticed in a video by RPM where they dynoed an SS with this intake, it looked like there was a huge unexplained opening where the filter went and no inner fender plastic… I’m certain that i’m reading it wrong but what I saw looked like a hack job. That one car is not representative I’m sure.
I’d like to see one properly installed on a Vee.


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#559 ·
So catching up on your build. . .

What is your HP Goal now?
What Compression Ratio?
What Blower?
What Engine RPM?
What Fuel?

If you shift at 6800 RPM, your piston cfm demand (demand side)
will serve to develop ~750 - 770 fwHP.

With the above we can make the assumption that your induction system
(supply side) can easily service that HP Goal.

100% cylinder fill will amount to about 865 - 885 fwHP
That would require around 1350 cfm, assuming that
the 'Trapped Mass' will bring the 'Dynamic Compression'
ratio up to at least 15.2:1.

And I believe (you can confirm) that your HP goal is ~1,000.
That would amount to a 'Supply Side' which will deliver ~1500 cfm.

1000 HP divided by 770 HP gives us a ratio of 1.30.

That number must now be integrated with the Supply Side or
the CFM / Density Ratio your blower and mass recovery system
will be functioning at, and / or the % of oxygenated fuel you
will be using.

Now I believe that Matt stated in a post sometime back that,
that HP Level will require (in his opinion..I Do Believe..lol) both
Ethanol along with Meth.

And I agree with the above, but I also like to add that the E, must be a quality E.
Having 15% 'Crap' gasoline with E85, does not help to maintain a sufficient MON Rating.

So Mr. Surly,
What is your plan now after ~558 Posts. .:giggle:

Cheers,
Bruce
 
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#563 · (Edited)
So catching up on your build. . .

So Mr. Surly,
What is your plan now after ~558 Posts. .:giggle:

Cheers,
Bruce

I.... I have alMOST

narrowed it down...





The plan (since deciding to go 427 )
Started with build the bottom end to handle WHATEVER might eventually be bolted on top... specifically to include a 2650 ~someday~
The goal for HP for my aborted LSA build was 750~?
The 427 build (assuming LSA blower) was 800~850 ish(?)
Now that I decided to 2650 >NOW<, it seems that my new target, logically, would be four digits. It really becomes "let's see what she'll do"

The spec'd parts so far are the LSX iron block, Brodix billet CCW crank, Callies Enforcer rods, Mahle pistons which should provide a VERY stout base for whatever top end (opinions welcomed)

Now that the top end includes the ~400CFM Mast heads on a 4.125 bore with a Magnuson 2.65L blower on top with its huge IC brick with 9.5:3" drive and Matt's custom bad ass cam plus the 4.5" DDP and 2" headers, it would seem to me to add up to (I welcome your math input) at the very least, a VERY large capacity air pump.
I expect that as there will be relatively low restriction that the boost will be ~15-16psi range?

I can easily see that the next hurdle will be the fuel supply. My current dual 340Lph pumps probably ain't gonna do it, I'll bet. I don't know about the 1300X injectors if I were to add E.

What will she do? I predict that with the current fuel pumps and local store 93 pump gas, it will struggle to reach 900 (predictions welcomed)

With more pump and 'store bought' E I see four figures.
Note that "race E" is available right down the street but at $9/gal, I doubt I'll ever test it.
 
#562 · (Edited)
I don't know what level of HP your speaking about Matt, but in
general I agree; except that the quality of pump E85 varies, quite
considerably.

This is particularly relevant to both the quantity of E versus, the quantity of Gasoline, used to make up each gallon pumped into
your cars tank.

-a few mor caveats-
Since we are speaking about E85; if the 15% gasoline is not of
sufficient octane, then the MON value goes to Hell.

MON requirements go up as you hold your foot down on the
gas pedal. MON is what is relevant to the increase of time, versus
pressure encountered as you hold the pedal down.

This is where Meth comes in. Even with much boost, one can run as
much compression as you want with Meth, and for short runs you
don't even require an intercooler.

============================================

Since Mr. Surly has not responded to my questions regarding
his engine build, you all take care now. . . .

Cheers
 
#567 ·
Here is a graph of a very similar build. Few less cubes, same heads, similar cam, 2650 blower with the same pulley combo, Pump E85 with triple pumps and 1300X2 injectors. Timing is conservative at this point and was later turned up another 75hp or so on race ethanol. This is also a 6L90 car so chassis dyno numbers would be a bit higher with a manual.


Rectangle Slope Plot Font Parallel
 
#569 ·
Here is a graph of a very similar build. Few less cubes, same heads, similar cam, 2650 blower with the same pulley combo, Pump E85 with triple pumps and 1300X2 injectors. Timing is conservative at this point and was later turned up another 75hp or so on race ethanol. This is also a 6L90 car so chassis dyno numbers would be a bit higher with a manual.


View attachment 156495
As I’ve stated before Matt your Dyno Charts
tend to look both real and correct.

They are some of the best posted on this forum.

However regarding the MON requirements I have spoken about. . . .
How long is the throttle Held wide open when you perform a dyno test?
 
#570 · (Edited)
Matt, do you have numbers on that same engine on 93???
I have a suggestion for you…
Be careful my friend, and don’t push it!

You’re moving from a rather common build that was a very straight forward / common /streetable build, to a very serious build, which even when you’re through with the engine at the power level you appear to be attempting to achieve, will require much more work and money be spent on your drivetrain.
 
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#579 · (Edited)
Thanks for the info Matt.
I am not going to belabor this and push anything on anyone,
but I am going to simply use an analogy which will hopefully
be sufficient for people to understand what I am getting at.

As related to these engines, your an expert engine tuner
who would be monitoring many different engine variables.

You wrote:
"Under load that pull was around 8 seconds. The cars get logged on the track and 1/2 mile pulls though after being on the dyno."

------------------------------------------------------------------

So now let's change the environment.

Customer in Texas builds the same engine you built.
Customer pushes for max Torque and HP on 'Pump E'.

Customer gets into roll racing, maybe 2 out of 3.
Ambient temperature is now ~+30° F from dyno session.

Number 7 & 8 cylinders on these engines don't cool down, as do the other six.

Heat builds up in engine during the ~10-Minutes it takes to make the three roll races.

Now that 87 Octane does not have sufficient MON to deter self detonation.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Finally, below is some calculated info regarding fuel requirements
for a 442 CID NA Engine which made 901 fwHP.

Please notice first of all that this is only a 4-Second Dyno run,
using 600 rpm / second stepped intervals. Yet look at the
targeted EGT Temps.

Target EGT= 1182.4 degrees F at end of 4 second 600 RPM/Sec Dyno accel. test
Octane (R+M)/2 Method = 112.1 to 115.6 Octane required range
Air Standard Efficiency = 66.96188 % for 15.300:1 Compression Ratio

------------------------------------------------------------------------

And for those who might be interested in this type of thing, the info
below shows the MON number for VP-112 as 108, which is not just
a bit more than 87 Octane would have..lol

Octane (RON+MON/2): 112 Research Octane Number (RON): 116
Motor Octane Number (MON): 108

------------------------------------------------------------------------


A final note for Mr. Surly:
Your 10.2:1 static compression ratio will be raised by the 'Trapped Mass'.
Trapped mass is directly related to your density ratio.

Let's assume we have an adiabatic ratio equivalent to the square root of the ABS Pr.

If we have 2-BAR ABS, then. . .

=> (2.0^ 0.5)= 1.41

Let's now multiply that 1.41 by your static Cr. . .
=> (10.2 * 1.41)= 14.42 => Your Dynamic Compression Ratio.

However, the above does not include for the increase
in one's dynamic compression ratio 'After' or at the
output of the intercooler, as the density ratio / mass charge
here will be higher.

So your actual dynamic compression ratio, which is simply
another term for 'Trapped Mass', or also 'Trapped Compression',
which is related to the square root (or n^0.5) will be even higher,
much higher!

Take care!
Bruce
 
#577 · (Edited)
That configuration makes for a very nice engine, assuming the cylinder head has a 2.204 inch intake valve with sufficient valve lift. This in turn provides for sufficient valve curtain area.
 
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#585 ·
Here is an interesting read on pistons for both NA & FI / Boosted applications.


Please first notice that the upper ring is placed further down for an FI / Boosted Engine.

You might also want to address the necessity of those deep valve reliefs.
Do you require them for your camshafts overlap. . . .

I am including this picture, as it shows both the difference in the
location of the top ring, as well as the difference in the ring pack.

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