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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
 

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That is a badass car for sure, freaking amazing! In no way am I trying to diminish what that team has built but have a couple questions for us average owners out here. How much total money investment dollars in that Audi versus the Tesla off the showroom floor? How much will it cost me to go as fast as this car? The Tesla is giving up a 1K pounds, could those same results be obtained from a lower start point or dead stop? What is the reliabilty of that highly modified gas engine on multiple runs and regular driving compared to the Tesla? Is it a comfortable/luxurious and reliable daily driver like the Tesla? It would seem with the Tesla that you simply recharge the battery. The Tesla is a "stock" car I could buy today with warranty that reaches it's performance numbers with no modification and would beat pretty much every car on the road from a stoplight. I have been a car enthusiast my entire life and will always drive gas engined cars that I can modify and play with, nothing like the feel of raw torque and loud exhaust as you are pushed back in your seat but new technology has changed the game. Do you want to go fast or have fun going fast with the noise and vibration that entails. I have not driven a Tesla but want to, maybe it will change my opinion, I love acceration!
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
You said: How much total money investment dollars in that Audi versus the Tesla off the showroom floor? How much will it cost me to go as fast as this car?

Response: Let's break it down (These are rough guesstimates):
  • New Audi TTRS probably cost about - 75k
  • IMS850S Turbo Kit upgrade (IMS850S Kit for 8V RS3 and 8S TTRS) - 9k
  • Sleeved Short Block with upgraded pistons and rods - 8k
  • Built Transmission - 4k
  • Other miscellaneous mods like intakes, downpipe injectors and fuel system, etc. - 10k
Total: 106k
Building a TTRS or RS3 is not cheap by any means, but it still far less expensive than buying new Tesla Model S Plaid that cost around 130k new before markups.


You said: The Tesla is giving up a 1K pounds, could those same results be obtained from a lower start point or dead stop?
Response: My guess is that the Plaid would be victorious from a lower speed due especially from a dig with instant 1000 + torque hit to about 100mph and then the Audi would come around it soon after.


You said: What is the reliability of that highly modified gas engine on multiple runs and regular driving compared to the Tesla?
Response: Well no highly modified gas engine will be as reliable as compared to any Tesla. However, I believe this particular car has a better chance than most from experiencing a catastrophic failure since it has a fully built engine and transmission to handle the abuse.


You said: Is it a comfortable/luxurious and reliable daily driver like the Tesla?
Response: Probably not, but the Audi is no penalty box either. This particular Audi has a very nice interior, but no way is a 3200lb sports car with probably un upgraded stiff position gone to be as comfortable of a car to ride in as the Tesla. Tesla for the win here.


You said:
It would seem with the Tesla that you simply recharge the battery. The Tesla is a "stock" car I could buy today with warranty that reaches it's performance numbers with no modification and would beat pretty much every car on the road from a stoplight.
Response: I agree with you 100%. A Tesla Plaid will beat 99.9% of the car it will run across on the road in normal driving situations.

You said: I have not driven a Tesla but want to, maybe it will change my opinion, I love acceleration!
My response: I had the opportunity last month to go on a test ride in a Plaid owned by the shop that built my car, but I cowered because I was afraid that the acceleration might make me not like my car's performance as much anymore. :ROFLMAO:
 

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You said: How much total money investment dollars in that Audi versus the Tesla off the showroom floor? How much will it cost me to go as fast as this car?

Response: Let's break it down (These are rough guesstimates):
  • New Audi TTRS probably cost about - 75k
  • IMS850S Turbo Kit upgrade (IMS850S Kit for 8V RS3 and 8S TTRS) - 9k
  • Sleeved Short Block with upgraded pistons and rods - 8k
  • Built Transmission - 4k
  • Other miscellaneous mods like intakes, downpipe injectors and fuel system, etc. - 10k
Total: 106k
Building a TTRS or RS3 is not cheap by any means, but it still far less expensive than buying new Tesla Model S Plaid that cost around 130k new before markups.


You said: The Tesla is giving up a 1K pounds, could those same results be obtained from a lower start point or dead stop?
Response: My guess is that the Plaid would be victorious from a lower speed due especially from a dig with instant 1000 + torque hit to about 100mph and then the Audi would come around it soon after.


You said: What is the reliability of that highly modified gas engine on multiple runs and regular driving compared to the Tesla?
Response: Well no highly modified gas engine will be as reliable as compared to any Tesla. However, I believe this particular car has a better chance than most from experiencing a catastrophic failure since it has a fully built engine and transmission to handle the abuse.


You said: Is it a comfortable/luxurious and reliable daily driver like the Tesla?
Response: Probably not, but the Audi is no penalty box either. This particular Audi has a very nice interior, but no way is a 3200lb sports car with probably un upgraded stiff position gone to be as comfortable of a car to ride in as the Tesla. Tesla for the win here.


You said:
It would seem with the Tesla that you simply recharge the battery. The Tesla is a "stock" car I could buy today with warranty that reaches it's performance numbers with no modification and would beat pretty much every car on the road from a stoplight.
Response: I agree with you 100%. A Tesla Plaid will beat 99.9% of the car it will run across on the road in normal driving situations.

You said: I have not driven a Tesla but want to, maybe it will change my opinion, I love acceleration!
My response: I had the opportunity last month to go on a test ride in a Plaid owned by the shop that built my car, but I cowered because I was afraid that the acceleration might make me not like my car's performance as much anymore. :ROFLMAO:
It's the 馃ぃ馃ぃ馃ぃ at the end for me..
 

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You said: How much total money investment dollars in that Audi versus the Tesla off the showroom floor? How much will it cost me to go as fast as this car?

Response: Let's break it down (These are rough guesstimates):
  • New Audi TTRS probably cost about - 75k
  • IMS850S Turbo Kit upgrade (IMS850S Kit for 8V RS3 and 8S TTRS) - 9k
  • Sleeved Short Block with upgraded pistons and rods - 8k
  • Built Transmission - 4k
  • Other miscellaneous mods like intakes, downpipe injectors and fuel system, etc. - 10k
Total: 106k
Building a TTRS or RS3 is not cheap by any means, but it still far less expensive than buying new Tesla Model S Plaid that cost around 130k new before markups.


You said: The Tesla is giving up a 1K pounds, could those same results be obtained from a lower start point or dead stop?
Response: My guess is that the Plaid would be victorious from a lower speed due especially from a dig with instant 1000 + torque hit to about 100mph and then the Audi would come around it soon after.


You said: What is the reliability of that highly modified gas engine on multiple runs and regular driving compared to the Tesla?
Response: Well no highly modified gas engine will be as reliable as compared to any Tesla. However, I believe this particular car has a better chance than most from experiencing a catastrophic failure since it has a fully built engine and transmission to handle the abuse.


You said: Is it a comfortable/luxurious and reliable daily driver like the Tesla?
Response: Probably not, but the Audi is no penalty box either. This particular Audi has a very nice interior, but no way is a 3200lb sports car with probably un upgraded stiff position gone to be as comfortable of a car to ride in as the Tesla. Tesla for the win here.


You said:
It would seem with the Tesla that you simply recharge the battery. The Tesla is a "stock" car I could buy today with warranty that reaches it's performance numbers with no modification and would beat pretty much every car on the road from a stoplight.
Response: I agree with you 100%. A Tesla Plaid will beat 99.9% of the car it will run across on the road in normal driving situations.

You said: I have not driven a Tesla but want to, maybe it will change my opinion, I love acceleration!
My response: I had the opportunity last month to go on a test ride in a Plaid owned by the shop that built my car, but I cowered because I was afraid that the acceleration might make me not like my car's performance as much anymore. :ROFLMAO:
The longevity....I'm waiting for the 5 to 8 year numbers, and cost to replace batteries start to happen.
 

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Like to see the size of the battery to compete in top fuel...
It's probably possible to run top fuel times on a similar size battery as in a tesla. The big difference would be that it's wired for 1600V with some 4" OD nitrogen cooled cables going to the drive and motor.
 
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It's probably possible to run top fuel times on a similar size battery as in a tesla. The big difference would be that it's wired for 1600V with some 4" OD nitrogen cooled cables going to the drive and motor.
Mike, this post is not directed at you, I am just tying into the subject using your post.

One does not require an ~10,000 HP Nitro Burning IC Engine to beat a Tesla in the quarter mile. Below is a copy of two time slips for an NHRA Pro Stock which an NA 500 CID Engine.

Please look at not just the 60 Ft. times, but compare the 330 Ft. times with the 60 Ft. times of the Tesla.
LANEDRIVERCAR NO.CLASSDIAL INRT60 FT330 FT660 FT660 FT MPH1000 FTETMPHOV/UN
LeftGreg Anderson2PRO--.051.9932.7614.237167.785.5006.560213.43--
RightShane GrayWIN3PRO--.050.9962.7584.222168.725.4786.535212.96

Matter of fact; I can beat any Tesla, when raced on an NHRA National Event Prepped Track, with an NA Engine having about 300 CID. Also, I am not the only person that can do that. There are thousands of NHRA Legal Cars that can do that. . .And we can do that 'On Gasoline', no need for Nitro or Alcohol!

It's really pretty simple; one must produce between 2.87 fwHP to 3.0 fwHP per CID. This requires the induction system must make right at, or very close to 2.4 fwHP per CFM Flowed.

-----------------------------------------------------------

The title of this thread is;
850hp (800-850whp) TTRS spanks a Tesla Plaid

Using the info I posted above we can solve for the induction system requirements.

With an efficient engine 850 fwHP requires the heads to flow. . .
=> (850 / 2.4)= 355 cfm, with the manifold bolted to the head when flowed.

Now let's solve for the size of the engine. . .
=> (850 / 2.87)= 296 CID.

Camshaft would be spec'd at around. ..
=> 289掳 duration @ 0.050" of lifter rise, with a net valve lift of ~0.850"

---------------------------------------------------------


Also, while my CTS-V does pollute the air while driving it, and the EV does not, one might look into how much pollution is generated to make those giant batteries required to convert stored electricity into kinetic energy.

I will keep my IC Engine which converts gasoline to thermal energy, which then is converted into kinetic energy. Which by the way actually pollutes the air less when I am driving it, then the pollution generated when they produce those giant batteries.

And in the end, I won't have a 1000 pound battery that must be disposed of approximately every 10 -Years or so.

Cheers
 

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Um, who says the Tesla is reliable, and by what criteria. My friend and neighbor general manages a large Tesla dealership near me, and he says Tesla has terrible overall reliability compared to the Ford/Nissan dealership he used to general manage.
Weirdly, he says the Tesla customers are far less demanding about reliability issues, and they remain insanely enthusiastic even after experiencing multiple break downs (that strand the owner and requires flatbedding to the dealer for repairs). He says that Tesla buyers would allow him to shit on the dash, if he just says 鈥淓lon says it is an upgrade鈥.
 

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HotSoss,
Thank you so much for the detailed reply and not taking offense to the questions I asked. I would honestly rather drive my V or your amazing car any day. Very interesting world we live in today with high performance cars. I've always taken great pride in the cars and bikes I have worked on, owned. and their performance improvements. That is my perception is that the EVs lack emotion or personal investment/identity. It is insane what they are capable of but I just don't feel that the majority of owners were ever guys that were working on their own cars to begin with and now with a bit of money can just blow away most enthusiasts. I am not trying to disparage any Tesla owners on this board, you may have built cars your whole life and are now just enjoying the fastest production car ever produced, going fast is fun!
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
HotSoss,
Thank you so much for the detailed reply and not taking offense to the questions I asked. I would honestly rather drive my V or your amazing car any day. Very interesting world we live in today with high performance cars. I've always taken great pride in the cars and bikes I have worked on, owned. and their performance improvements. That is my perception is that the EVs lack emotion or personal investment/identity. It is insane what they are capable of but I just don't feel that the majority of owners were ever guys that were working on their own cars to begin with and now with a bit of money can just blow away most enthusiasts. I am not trying to disparage any Tesla owners on this board, you may have built cars your whole life and are now just enjoying the fastest production car ever produced, going fast is fun!
I prefer the hybrid like drivetrains that are coming out by Mercedes. Hybrids bridge the gap nicely allowing enthusiast to still feel and hear the roar of an engine combined with the electric assist of batteries.

 

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It's probably possible to run top fuel times on a similar size battery as in a tesla. The big difference would be that it's wired for 1600V with some 4" OD nitrogen cooled cables going to the drive and motor.
No way could a Tesla match a top fuel dragster with current technology (or anytime soon I am confident saying).

You realize that top fuel cars have 10,000-15,000 hp and go over 330mph in the 1000ft right? lol.

Even 1600V with the same amount of current (which is essentially the limit of what that size battery pack can produce right now) would get you about 2500hp best case. Not to mention the gearing needed for the electric motor to reach 330mph would kill the low end acceleration without using a transmission.
 

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A fuel car makes 10,000hp? Holy shit, I never knew that I'm totally new to this drag racing stuff. I don't know anything about electricity either. Please enlighten me more, I'm just a dumb hick from TN.
 

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Read what I quoted and what I wrote. I didn't claim a tesla could get there. We weren't talking about making a fuel car run on a tesla battery. We were talking about battery size.

A model S battery is probably a good example of the latest power density and has 60kWh capacity according to the lowest number I can find in a google search. That is 60,000W for one hour or 3600 seconds. So to burn all that power in 6 seconds you'd need to burn 60,000W * 1hr (3600s/1hr)/6s= 36MW which equals 48,000hp. Is that more than 10,000-15,000? I don't know, just a hick. Tesla claims more more like 100kWh

Don't take this so literally, obviously that's isn't actually possible right now. Theoretically (you guys all worship theory here) it's possible. The reality of that kind of discharge rate is not possible with current technology. But let top fuel teams use electric equipment for a few decades with their sponsorship budget they'll get there. Lot's of college funding is going to charging research right now. Higher current charging tech will directly correlate to discharge rate tech.

300mph. Well currently they get there turning a hemi about 10,000rpm. Admittedly I'm not an electric motor expert. But I do know with AC motors that speed is controlled by frequency. A typical 3 phase motor 60hz is 3600 rpm. So it would take 180hz to get to 10,800 rpm. Oh, but most motors can't turn 10,000 rpm. Well fuel motors barely make it 3.5 seconds before coming apart because they tune them to the ragged edge. I bet with a little sponsorship money and r&d time a fuel team will figure that out with electric motors Tesla uses DC motors in some applications and AC in others. DC motor speed it determined by Voltage.

I mentioned needing cooling on cables. Maybe that's not necessary. Fuel cars don't care to burn a set of pistons, rings, bearings and clutch discs in one pass. I bet they'd have no issue burning up a couple feet of 1000mcm cable per pass, so maybe they don't need cable cooling.

We could talk 0 rpm electric motor torque and tuning frequency drives vs a clutch, but I'm a dumb hick and don't want to overstep my bounds here.
 

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Read what I quoted and what I wrote. I didn't claim a tesla could get there. We weren't talking about making a fuel car run on a tesla battery. We were talking about battery size.

A model S battery is probably a good example of the latest power density and has 60kWh capacity according to the lowest number I can find in a google search. That is 60,000W for one hour or 3600 seconds. So to burn all that power in 6 seconds you'd need to burn 60,000W * 1hr (3600s/1hr)/6s= 36MW which equals 48,000hp. Is that more than 10,000-15,000? I don't know, just a hick. Tesla claims more more like 100kWh

Don't take this so literally, obviously that's isn't actually possible right now. Theoretically (you guys all worship theory here) it's possible. The reality of that kind of discharge rate is not possible with current technology. But let top fuel teams use electric equipment for a few decades with their sponsorship budget they'll get there. Lot's of college funding is going to charging research right now. Higher current charging tech will directly correlate to discharge rate tech.

300mph. Well currently they get there turning a hemi about 10,000rpm. Admittedly I'm not an electric motor expert. But I do know with AC motors that speed is controlled by frequency. A typical 3 phase motor 60hz is 3600 rpm. So it would take 180hz to get to 10,800 rpm. Oh, but most motors can't turn 10,000 rpm. Well fuel motors barely make it 3.5 seconds before coming apart because they tune them to the ragged edge. I bet with a little sponsorship money and r&d time a fuel team will figure that out with electric motors Tesla uses DC motors in some applications and AC in others. DC motor speed it determined by Voltage.

I mentioned needing cooling on cables. Maybe that's not necessary. Fuel cars don't care to burn a set of pistons, rings, bearings and clutch discs in one pass. I bet they'd have no issue burning up a couple feet of 1000mcm cable per pass, so maybe they don't need cable cooling.

We could talk 0 rpm electric motor torque and tuning frequency drives vs a clutch, but I'm a dumb hick and don't want to overstep my bounds here.
You don't have to get so defensive lol. I was just bringing some facts to the discussion. I didn't say an EV couldn't ever get there but for sure not a tesla plaid with current battery technology and not in lets say the next 5-10 years if I had to guess.

Your point about RPM, yes an electric motor can be made to turn 10k+ rpm but there is a tradeoff on Kt and Kv with the higher speed winding meaning the higher speed windings are much less efficient at turning current into torque so you need even more current for a given torque.
And like you said batteries are severely limited in discharge rate so current is the limit here we want to be as efficient with turning that current into torque as we can.
Even a 100kWh Tesla battery would literally explode if you tried to discharge it much faster than they currently are in the Plaid.

Also your calculation on frequency isn't that straighforward it depends on number of poles etc and an asynchronous AC motor has a real fucked up speed torque curve. A permanent magnet synchrnous AC motor (what you called a DC motor but isn't really a DC motor) yes top speed is determined by voltage and Back EMF which is a function of the speed of the windings.

Anyway all this to say I am quite confident what I wrote before is correct, you aren't going to make a tesla or any other EV using current battery tech beat or match a top fuel car.
Also, nowhere did I call you JuSt A dUmB hIcK so get your panties out of a bunch lol.
 

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You鈥檙e right, I shouldn鈥檛 have allowed myself to get fished in. I鈥檒l make sure to steer clear of conversations with condescending cunts that misinterpret what I write. Have a good day and cary on the good fight of setting us all in our place!
 

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Also your calculation on frequency isn't that straightforward it depends on number of poles etc and an asynchronous AC motor has a real fucked up speed torque curve. A permanent magnet synchronous AC motor (what you called a DC motor but isn't really a DC motor) yes top speed is determined by voltage and Back EMF which is a function of the speed of the windings.
I know a bit about electronics, but don't work with electric motors.

So for the sake of 'Simple / Friendly.;).Clarification Purposes'. . . .
If you have 'Back EMF' / Reactance / Inductance (Xl), where the reactive component Xl, exists at any time, other then the turn on of the electric motor, cannot be a pure DC motor.

-regarding a causal interface containing Xl-
If the reactance of the interface or network (as one might define it) 'Varies' either with the applied current level, or a necessary varying time / frequency component (frequency span), then the electric motor is neither linear nor causal.

If have purposefully left out the reactive component of Xc, as any network that possesses both electrical components might generate parallel resonances, which I don't believe is part of the issue you took up with the stated so called DC motors.

Does the above satisfy your statements, or would you have other comments to help clarify?

Happy Holidays..:)
 

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Mr. Soss,
Are we going to have to stop discussing NHRA Nitro Cars, or discussing
if a car with an IC Engine can beat a Tesla.

I say we drop the Nitro Cars, what you say..:eek::rolleyes::ROFLMAO:
 
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Mr. Soss,
Are we going to have to stop discussing NHRA Nitro Cars, or discussing
if a car with an IC Engine can beat a Tesla.

I say we drop the Nitro Cars, what you say..:eek::rolleyes::ROFLMAO:
I'm not sure how this devolved to a top fuel dragster discussion, I don't know of any EV brands that are even trying to climb into that market yet much less compete. Is it possible? Sure. Will it happen eventually? Likely. I thought it was just a friendly discussion about what top builders of how ICE car builders can compete with current technolgy for street cars. I agree with Hotsoss that the hybrid variant raises many potentiol opportunities, perhaps there is a way to combine the attributes of both EV and ICE to further the pursuit of speed and performance. I see this more of a possibility in the world of track racing but who knows. Car enthusiats have always embraced technolgy and implemented in thier designs/builds even if reluctantly at times. But building a top fuel dragster isn't even closely related to a daily driver on the street, you are the epitome of ridiculous speeds that can be produced at any cost with the sole purpose of achieving those speeds. Your accomplishments filter down to what the street driven cars are capable of.
 
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