Permatex Hi-temp RTV - you'll be just fine..................................................changing headers is easy anyway, so what are you worried about...........
The biggest gap is between cyl 2 and 4 - with the outermost bolt hole on #2 having a notable curve to it - so I'm questioning the cut between 4 & 6 having any effect there.
I haven't put feeler guages on it yet, but I'd estimate the gap at around .75mm or so.
And seriously, these things were $1700 so I expected to NOT have to deal with warped exhaust flanges on a product that has been out for 6+ years.
It's headers advertising 101: they're guaranteed to fit your car AND we use 3/8" flanges for a perfect, uniform seal!
I guess I will call them today and see what the excuse will be.
With the manifolds snugged onto the heads, at the exhaust port of the head (ie inbetween the bolt locations), I'm getting clearance of 0.013" on one port, 0.016" on a second and 0.020" on a third with the feeler guage.
To complicate matters, the flange is not uniform: it looks like they smoothed out the welds with an angle grinder, leaving an irregular surface to mate to the gasket with.
Seems like a lot for the gasket to compensate for, and again slightly annoying from a quality control standpoint.
Honestly, the ARH headers were good - their primary design is what limits the use in 6 bolt heads; and their flange is straight even after years of use. except I had one of the ARH hi-flow cats rust through due to how the pipe was made, and they said no warranty because I had them ceramic coated... so that was a "fuck you" for buying American and expecting customer service.
Kooks will fit, they confirmed that today but I've no personal experience.
Ergo I chose SW because they were a known header with these 6-bolt heads; I figure I'd give them the benefit of the doubt after reading through that sticky on their cat-back design, and here we are. The flange might seal with an OEM gasket, that's good. Or I could try some premium copper gaskets, etc to make it work. But I'm going to spend another $500 to have these Swain-Tech coated so I'm more than a little irked that it will be a bit of a wait and see until after the coating, where there will be no warranty, for what doesn't seem right from the get-go. Now in all fairness I reached out to SW, [ETA] and after three months they have never actually responded to me - my only response was indirectly through a vendor, even though I called their corporate office twice and emailed them photos at their request. So, Stainless Works can suck a bag of dicks for this shit. [/ETA]
So I suppose it's just the principle of it to buy a premium product for quality, and getting slip-fit connections with irregular mating surfaces. I'm getting the vibe that "it's good enough" from the feedback here as well as vendors, so yeah... "good enough" at half the price point might make more and more sense, depending on how SW handles this.
I get your frustration totally...that said you can use a GM gasket and be good Im sure...See what they will do for you as its definitely unacceptable.
The gasket I used was a multi layer steel...the amount of gasket ring around each port is thicker than .030" when crushed...which is your irregularity. But then again...will it leak with time?
As I mentioned in the PM I would expect they would just swap them out for another set which may have a better flange, but probably won't be checked before sending the replacement out. My guess is that it will seal with a GM MLS gasket, but ARH and Kooks do tend to have a bit better QC in my experience. If you want to return them and do Kooks instead we can also do that. Let me know
Thank you, I'll see what they say and go from there. At least the overall fitment was very good, abeit I expect to have to grind down a bolt on the steering shaft for clearance.
At that price point they are not what I would expect. They very well may seal just fine the OEM gasket is a wonder of engineering.
I had a set of custom Lemon Headers built for big block that cost $1,500 in mild steel not SS. They looked like a piece of art and the flange was final milled after the headers were welded together it was dead flat. After Jet Hot coating they were still dead flat and sealed without question.
Years ago I had a similar issue with a set of Kooks. I called them & they were less than thrilled with me, but re-machined the flanges.
The outside bolt hole was rounded like they ground it with a cheap belt sander.
Cost me $40 in return shipping, but they made it right.
When you spend $1000 on headers they should be a flat.
So a local shop had a grinding table and since I haven't heard from SW yet, I figure "eh, grind off the high points and go for it."
Well, that was a mistake. The darker spots are untouched with the shiny spots being the flattened out portions: still quite a bit of disuniformity and even some the welds were remarkably shallow, so you can see hairline gaps between the pipe and flange in some areas.
Of course now that I've "modified" them, and it just magnifies how poorly they were originally welded, it will be harder to justify a return. Still waiting to hear back from SW, but even a return at the get-go would not have guaranteed the next set would be any better.
When I called SW last week, the spokesperson was unaware of any tolerance regarding the flange warping.
And this is why you dont direct ship headers to a coating company first!
So a local shop had a grinding table and since I haven't heard from SW yet, I figure "eh, grind off the high points and go for it."
Well, that was a mistake. The darker spots are untouched with the shiny spots being the flattened out portions: still quite a bit of disuniformity and even some the welds were remarkably shallow, so you can see hairline gaps between the pipe and flange in some areas.
Of course now that I've "modified" them, and it just magnifies how poorly they were originally welded, it will be harder to justify a return. Still waiting to hear back from SW, but even a return at the get-go would not have guaranteed the next set would be any better.
When I called SW last week, the spokesperson was unaware of any tolerance regarding the flange warping.
Well, I finally heard back: just ignoring any grinding I did to improve the product, Stainless Works' official position is you can stick a finger in between the cylinder head and header flange and it will be in spec - but by the way, slather some RTV on there so it doesn't leak for a while. Their official response is "they seal up just fine."
What an absolute crock of shit.
After getting dismissed by ARH for a $2100 set of headers where one of their bullet cats burned through from the INSIDE of the pipe after about 2 years - oh, nope we can't honor any warranty because you ceramic coated the headers to save your engine bay, wiring harness and starter... so you're SOL - due to how it was worked and telling me to pound sand... I remember the installer having to get the ratchet straps out on those during the install FWIW. And now Stainless Works telling me that two visibly warped and irregular header flanges on an $1800 set of headers is "within spec," oh and I'll have to "clearance" the steering linkage anyway...
Seriously. No quality control, no warranty, and not even so much as a gesture of interest in making it right... why bother?
0.035" clearance is 9-10 sheets of paper stacked together, give or take, on a surface that should have been sanded flat after welding. Nothing against Matt as he is a responsive vendor who just happened to resell this particular set, and he has gone out of his way to help out with the distributor and SW directly (thank you again); and I know he will disagree with me here as his experience is far more significant in installing these than mine. But as a guy who pays the premium for a USA made product and from an American Made company and contacts them directly when there are problems and try to do things the "right way," well this is frankly insulting.
I think I can officially sum up my experience with US exhaust manufacturers: Go ahead and buy the Chinese stuff. Hell, I will have had to cut/weld or fix both sets of USA made headers now, without so much as an apology for my troubles.
0.035 is a lot IMHO. But of course the tolerance is just an opportunity to waive off any liability when people complain. With enough RTV why not make it 0.045? Lol
Oh well, another lesson learned.
That's what I get for trying a "reputable" option for the specific purpose of time delays and... well... shit like this.
0.035 tolerance:
Anyway, the welds on some primaries were also a little lacking- but hey I flattened it out so it's all on me. Still cheaper then spending $100 to ship it back to the fuckheads for a return.
I'm thinking the primary will seal against the gasket and 0.020" worth of RTV- so welding is probably unnecessary here?
That's really sucks man! I hate to see shit like that! Word of mouth about customer service will bite them in the ass, especially at the prices they charge for headers.
I’m not real impressed with SWs quality or tolerances here. Generally we do not use or sell much of their product but do have access through one of our distributors. So , on occasion and customer request we will supply them.
In this instance unfortunately there is not much I can do for Jesse since the header has been grinded and the SW tolerance is so wide.
Seems that Stainless Works quality control could use some fine tuning.
For peace of mind, personally, I'd get those areas on the flanges re-welded and re-ground before getting them coated. It would really suck if they leaked once coated and on the car.
Hopefully the rest of the exhaust lines up for you.....
That is totally unacceptable. I would never have expected that from SW. The gaps where the tubing isn't welded, I just don't get it. I'd feel violated.
That is totally unacceptable. I would never have expected that from SW. The gaps where the tubing isn't welded, I just don't get it. I'd feel violated.
Yes, that is what also bothered me was the poor welding.
Fitment issues and header flanges that are not flat are
issues that began back in the 1960's when prefabricated
headers first became available.
Some of those early prefabricated headers were very
crude to say the least.
Before that you had to bring your car down to a header
shop so they could custom build the headers for your car.
That's how the legendary 'Jungle Jim Lieberman' began.
He used to build headers out of a business called 'Babes Mufflers'
in San Jose CA back in the mid 1960's.
Cheers
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