Stock v3's with detonation
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    Stock v3's with detonation

    Has anyone noticed puffs of smoke from detonation coming from the exhaust on acceleration?
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    I'll be the first to chime in. I have this smoke on acceleration and have monitored knock at WOT.

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    I have lots of smoke on acceleration. I have datalogged a lot but hardly ever see KR but every damn time its on the dyno it gets 5-6 deg of kr consistently. I always attributed the smoke to its running rich.
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    I haven't noticed a lot of smoke on acceleration but at WOT in higher gears, I tend to see 3-4.6 deg of KR. I'm pretty sure it is false knock and I'm tempted to tune it out after verifying. This was killing my quarter mile runs.... only managed 11.8 at 118ish.
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    I only see a tiny bit at cold start idling for the first 2-3 min in the sun 35 degree weather.

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    I will see if I can hook up my HP Tuners this week and see which cylinders are doing it.

    When I ran at the track with 116 octane unleaded, there was zero smoke all day.
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    I've had puffs of smoke on a WOT downshift/acceleration but can't speak to knock. I assume the smoke is the computer dumping a ton of fuel for cooling purposes.
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    What color smoke?

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    I have never followed behind my car to tell. but any color smoke, I shouldnt look like im spraying for mosquitoes when I punch it going up an on-ramp. I can feel the hesitation like its getting some knock.
    Silver surfer, 2016 Radiant Silver V3, 11.31@125 stock
    little red- 9.99@138 on the corn best mph 139 1/4 108.6 1/8 (sold)
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    The Z06 corvettes I've seen at the track seem to puff a lot of smoke on the shift. Someone said it was the pcm dumping excess fuel for catalytic converter cooling, but I don't know how reliable that info was. It's even more prominent on a friends Z with the primary cats removed.

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    It could be knock because the low quality of pump gasoline around the country only gets worse with the winter blend.
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    Basically all stock cars smoke at WOT because they're tuned so fat...
    Should I use the LSA or the LS9 today?

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    Since I have to tune a lot of cars on 91 octane I get pretty used to pulling a lot of timing out of stock maps to make the cars happy even without the boost turned up. I always assumed that it wouldn't be near as much on 93 but GM does run them rich and try to shove in a good amount of timing when the mixture gets into the 1.3X EQ ratio range.

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    So nothing you would worry about?
    Silver surfer, 2016 Radiant Silver V3, 11.31@125 stock
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    Quote Originally Posted by MeanMike View Post
    The Z06 corvettes I've seen at the track seem to puff a lot of smoke on the shift. Someone said it was the pcm dumping excess fuel for catalytic converter cooling, but I don't know how reliable that info was. It's even more prominent on a friends Z with the primary cats removed.
    The job of the cat is to burn off excess fuel. If the PCM dumps MORE fuel thru the engine the cat will get HOTTER as it burns/catalyzes the unburnt fuel. That can't be for cooling the cats. Must be something else...

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    Quote Originally Posted by TriTexan View Post
    The job of the cat is to burn off excess fuel. If the PCM dumps MORE fuel thru the engine the cat will get HOTTER as it burns/catalyzes the unburnt fuel. That can't be for cooling the cats. Must be something else...

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    The PCM definitely increases fueling to cool the cats.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TriTexan View Post
    The job of the cat is to burn off excess fuel. If the PCM dumps MORE fuel thru the engine the cat will get HOTTER as it burns/catalyzes the unburnt fuel. That can't be for cooling the cats. Must be something else...

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    I think that would be true if the cats had a supply of oxygen. The cats can only burn so much without a good supply of oxygen.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hocky View Post
    The PCM definitely increases fueling to cool the cats.
    Quote Originally Posted by JRockey View Post
    I think that would be true if the cats had a supply of oxygen. The cats can only burn so much without a good supply of oxygen.
    Hocky: ...I'll admit I'm not a catalytic converter expert. But I'm also not quite ready to accept a claim without a sound explanation. In this case, what should be shown is the chemical reaction equation that balances the inputs and outputs of the converter. Hydrocarbons in, what comes out? Normally that would include by-product of hydrocarbon breakdown plus heat. If there's enough fuel that makes it thru the combustion chamber, it could - in theory - cover the wash coat of the converter enough to prevent the catalyst from doing its job. In that case the exhaust would smell awful and the cats would indeed run cooler. But I highly doubt such a design would pass in today's world of strict emission controls. I've done a little Google searching and can find nowhere in a modern car - especially in a GDI engine - where excess fuel is used to cool the cats. That would almost be contrary to the point of having those cats to begin with.

    JRockey: Check me on this but in many cases the oxygen is supplied by the reduction of nitrogen oxides and other compounds - usually in a three way or multi-phase convertor setup. In this way no free oxygen is needed to supply the cats.

    So I thought phase 1 of catalyzation was the breakdown/reduction of oxides of nitrogen and similar compounds, followed by consumption of the newly liberated oxygen to consume unburned fuel and so on...
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    Quote Originally Posted by TriTexan View Post
    Hocky: ...I'll admit I'm not a catalytic converter expert. But I'm also not quite ready to accept a claim without a sound explanation. In this case, what should be shown is the chemical reaction equation that balances the inputs and outputs of the converter. Hydrocarbons in, what comes out? Normally that would include by-product of hydrocarbon breakdown plus heat. If there's enough fuel that makes it thru the combustion chamber, it could - in theory - cover the wash coat of the converter enough to prevent the catalyst from doing its job. In that case the exhaust would smell awful and the cats would indeed run cooler. But I highly doubt such a design would pass in today's world of strict emission controls. I've done a little Google searching and can find nowhere in a modern car - especially in a GDI engine - where excess fuel is used to cool the cats. That would almost be contrary to the point of having those cats to begin with.

    JRockey: Check me on this but in many cases the oxygen is supplied by the reduction of nitrogen oxides and other compounds - usually in a three way or multi-phase convertor setup. In this way no free oxygen is needed to supply the cats.

    So I thought phase 1 of catalyzation was the breakdown/reduction of oxides of nitrogen and similar compounds, followed by consumption of the newly liberated oxygen to consume unburned fuel and so on...


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    If the excess fuel is there, perhaps it's to cool the exhaust valves or other reasons, not specifically for catalytic purposes? The conversion of exhaust gases and having excess fuel in the converter are not necessarily directly connected - but fuel is a coolant and will briefly protect the catalytic metals (stalling the catalytic process) before coming a secondary source of heat; and we all know excess fuel in the long-term will destroy the converters for a variety of reasons, including heat from the secondary combustion.

    Given the focus of emissions and warranty lifespan, I can't imagine that the engineers would purposefully sacrifice the converters by dumping fuel into the exhaust under WOT, so it makes me think this must be the lesser of two evils from a longevity standpoint: We know the aftermarket has higher durability converters that are better able to withstand the heat from high horsepower F/I vehicles, so perhaps the OEM's have a solution as well and the extra fuel is simply there to protect the engine, knowing that the emissions equipment is durable enough to survive it?

    We'll have to wait and see how many tuned V3's start melting converters.
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    Quote Originally Posted by random84 View Post
    If the excess fuel is there, perhaps it's to cool the exhaust valves or other reasons, not specifically for catalytic purposes? The conversion of exhaust gases and having excess fuel in the converter are not necessarily directly connected - but fuel is a coolant and will briefly protect the catalytic metals (stalling the catalytic process) before coming a secondary source of heat; and we all know excess fuel in the long-term will destroy the converters for a variety of reasons, including heat from the secondary combustion.

    Given the focus of emissions and warranty lifespan, I can't imagine that the engineers would purposefully sacrifice the converters by dumping fuel into the exhaust under WOT, so it makes me think this must be the lesser of two evils from a longevity standpoint: We know the aftermarket has higher durability converters that are better able to withstand the heat from high horsepower F/I vehicles, so perhaps the OEM's have a solution as well and the extra fuel is simply there to protect the engine, knowing that the emissions equipment is durable enough to survive it?

    We'll have to wait and see how many tuned V3's start melting converters.
    Doesn't US Federal law require a full 10 year warranty on safety and emissions equipment? Given that I can't see them doing anything that would risk damaging a VERY expensive platinum coated convertor....

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    The tables in the pcm that provide the extra fueling are called "cat over temp." That is pretty self explanatory, I think.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hocky View Post
    The tables in the pcm that provide the extra fueling are called "cat over temp." That is pretty self explanatory, I think.
    Lol - yup, I guess that's it!

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    Delete converters and tune the damn things. They run way better
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    I did V-Lab couple months back at COTA, during track sessions every car in front of me smoked on a WOT shift eventually. It was definitely more pronounced on the CTS than the ATS. Those things also had wicked power/stability management that enabled you to flat foot it through 1.25g turns, maybe a relation?
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    Cat Over Temp exists and DOES dump fuel. On my old Impala SS, any time you went from 3.08's to 3.73 gears, the PCM would think the engine had a heavy load at cruise. I used to have datalogs that would show a flat line on the O2 sensors at 900mV for a good minute before they would return to functioning normally. That was way back in the LT1 Edit / Tuner Cat days....
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    So I finally went back and looked at logs from when I went to the track a few months ago.

    The car is getting 2-5 degrees of knock the entire pass and this is with 5 gallons of 116 unleaded and probably 2 or 3 gallons of 93.

    There is no reason that the car should knock. Iat2's were under 100 degrees.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evil_V View Post
    So I finally went back and looked at logs from when I went to the track a few months ago.

    The car is getting 2-5 degrees of knock the entire pass and this is with 5 gallons of 116 unleaded and probably 2 or 3 gallons of 93.

    There is no reason that the car should knock. Iat2's were under 100 degrees.
    Have you tried disconnecting the battery prior to running the 116/93 mix?

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    No, but not sure how that would help this case. Usually that fixes if the pcm is in low octane table and want it to reset to the high octane one.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evil_V View Post
    So I finally went back and looked at logs from when I went to the track a few months ago.

    The car is getting 2-5 degrees of knock the entire pass and this is with 5 gallons of 116 unleaded and probably 2 or 3 gallons of 93.

    There is no reason that the car should knock. Iat2's were under 100 degrees.
    The retard is not from detonation. There are many variables that cause the car to pull timing and a lot of what your logging may even be false.
    Go to Hp tuners form page and go to the beginning go the Gen V section and you will see all the issues related to what you describing. Even some being false KR. ( its showing KR but its not really happening)

    For god sake stop being a vagina and start modding your car already!!! That will take care of everything!!!!
    Last edited by gonabite; 01-15-2017 at 05:40 AM.
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